This is the thing I dont think Im being consistent, I think because Im so desperate for this to stop, Im panicking and just either shouting, getting fed up and just doing things out of desperation. I'm more oftern that not saying NO. Everything else Im just not so bothered about so Im more consistent, he's happy in his crate, he's not peeing or pooing in the house (only a few accidents, mainly wee, and this is only because I have a bad back and cant get to him in time, but he's going straight out as soon as he attempts and accident.

I understand he's only playing but Im just finding it hard in the timings as well as the right method. Everyone has an opinion and its having the comon sense to balance between treating him like a dog and treating him with kindness....

These two things are the same. The more you love, praise, play and reward your puppy the more he will respect and love you back thus following your every command.

If I squirted by pups with a water pistol or raised a hand to them they would think I was playing because thats how I've conditioned them to think, in my opinion that's how every dog should be, there is NEVER a need to use negative methods for training.

Yes you have to train them to stop the undesirable behaviour but this can and is done in a positive way. The link Jackson has provided offers very comprehensive advice on how to deal with this problem without squirting your puppy with a water pistol.

Last night I bathed one of my dogs and realised that the noise the shampoo squirter makes is simular to the noise made by a water spray or the like, just one thing that your puppy could learn to assosciate with the noise that will cause problems further down the line.

PLEASE DO NOT USE A WATER SPRAY ON YOUR PUPPY!!!

I must admit the name dogpositivetraining is puzzling me as you are promoting negative training methods in many of your posts.

Ditto.
No matter what you call or describe it as it is still an aversive.

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I agree entirely. No need to use aversives to train dogs at all.

I think we have all heard of Gwen Bailey. Myself and my husband have both met her. I have never heard of her advocaing clamping apupies mouth shut to stop play biting though.

The trick is, to look into the methods of lots of trainers and behaviourists and then draw your own conclusions, not just one.

Plenty of people I know claim to have hapy, well behaved dogs. What they have is shut down dogs.

can i just add this...when i was young ( a long time ago) i used to walk a nieghbours collie, great dog very friendly..i did this every day.then i took her out and some kids sqerted water at her...she would never come out with me again..

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Ild neva use water spray on a pup becoz they still ave so much to learn in a positive way.

But..i must admit....my sis used it on her ebt who was a bloody nightmare ( she is 2 years old )...and its worked a treat weve only gotta show her the bottle and she stops wat ever shes doing thats wrong and neva does it again lol

i repeat..i wouldnt do it on a pup tho.

heh heh - your sis' ebt reminded me of Calli. She's a swine for barking when people come to the house - we did try (in depseration!) using a water spray to try to stop her barking but she just thinks it's a game and barks even more while she jumps about trying to catch the spray!

Like you tho, I'd never use it on a puppy!

Janice, was it the water or was it the nasty kids (I would have thought they were shouting as kids do when doing things like this) that the dog was scared off???

To be fair to dogpositive,,, I think you have misinterpreted what she has actually written into something that was really nasty, which was not the case, a SMALL water spray, makes NO noise, Bailey quite enjoys it hence him stopping the destructive thing he doing and what he's doing isn't nice for my fingers, my daughers fingers, toes etc... and if I say no in a sturn voice surely he will think well your a missery guts and I dont like your tone, pushing him away from me.... Unless I'm wrong but surely shouting no to a dog is more harmful to you and your dogs relationship that a tiny harmful bit of water, which he doesn't relate to you at all and isn't even unpleasant, unless you have one of those huge double barrelled water pistols, then I think that is a little un-called for.

I do think anyone trying these methods needs to see a profesional and get trained though. I dont have a clue so ignoring the bad praising the good is what Im going for at the moment. Well see how it goes.

The reason aversive methods or negative re-inforcement should not be used by people who are inexperienced is this. Aversives and negative re-inforcement work because the dog is trying to avoid whatever is going to happen, be that water spray, spray collar, yank on the lead, whatever. The dog views the aversive as unpleasant, whether that is being described as 'suprising' the dog or whatever, the dog doesn't like it, otherwise it wouldn't work. Some inexperienced and who doesn't fully understand canince body language could easily mis-interpret the dogs reasons for behaving in a certain way, or get the timing wrong. For example, if you're using a spray collar, (which has been mentioned on thsi thread) and your dog happens ot be noticing your child in the second you spray it, especially if this inadvertantly happened more than once, which is a distinct possibility, then the dog coudl associate the unpleasant experience witht he child an dthen develop a strong dislike to the child, possibly even escalating, depending on the aversive used, how the dog views the aversive and what the dogs original reason for the unwanted behaviour was, to attacking the child. So, something that could have been easily handled turns into a nightmare situation.

I have never heard of anyone suggesting using a water spray for normal puppy biting, it simply isn't neccessary, let alone a good idea.

There are lots of experienced dog owners, breeders and trainers on this thread, and only one of them is suggesting a water spray, doesn't that tell you something?