long URL:
Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME

tiny if that is archived:
Dog Training: Animal Experts Debunk the Alpha-Dog Myth - TIME

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

YES! So happy to see this in the mainstream media. Happy day.

An excerpt below:

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I wonder if anyone can help me understand something I've been pondering for a while now. I saw one of Victoria Stilwell's older shows and in the show she was talking about how the alpha wolf always eats first and was telling the owners they must eat a biscuit as if they were eating it from the dog's bowl to show their dog that it was less important than them in the pack.

She is also always talking about how the dogs are at the top of the pack with their owner's being under them at the beginning of the show and, of course, by the end of the show the position has reversed with the dog now in its right position at the bottom of the pack.

Surely what she is saying goes against the modern theory of Alpha-Male Dominance. Do positive-reinforcement trainers, like Victoria Stilwell, still think the owners should be the alpha in the pack or have her shows in the USA moved away from this sort of thing? I don't have Sky so do not often see CM's or VS's more current shows but I thought positive-reinforcement trainers had moved away from the eating first thing.

Thanks for your help and sorry for such a basic question.

I think VS used to believe in the Dominance theory but has changed now.

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I thought that was probably it, luvmydogs. It is very confusing for people like me who are trying to work their way through all the current theory and trying to make some sense of it all.

hey, jan! :--)
she had a few of those in her USA-episodes early on, but they were rare - there might have been 2 or 3 total,
and it was obvious to me that the *dominatrix* get-up was just a costume, not a role she played.

i always thought it was the producer playing the on-camera action for more drama, myself- as opposed to *vic*
seriously believing that eating a water-biscuit over the dog's S/S bowl would change the dog's perception of,
+ relationship with, the human[s] - all by itself
i think if we looked at this not as who is top-dog but who is deciding things -
if the dog will get on the couch, when the dog will eat, if the man can kiss his wife or get into the bed -
then it is not a hierarchy but who is the executive? who makes the decisions -
the dog for themselves, the dog FOR the humans, or humans for themselves And The Dog? does that make sense?

i do not hold with dominance-theory in training or a linear pack-hierarchy in dog groups, or even linear status
in human families with their dogs - the way i see it, the HUMAN is the parent, deciding what the dog eats,
when; where the dog may go; social contacts, in + out of the house; safety rules [sit at curbs? stand at curbs?],
providing exercise, grooming and health care/husbandry, transportation, toys, education, and so on.

dogs never achieve independence; they do not move out, earn a living, vote, own property, etc.
BUT - i don't have a problem with an adult-dog taking charge in apropos circs, as my Akita did when a threatening
man harassed us at the tennis-court one day - or letting me know there is fresh bear-scat, and she is worried about it.
so i see this whole Q of who is in charge as being quite fluid - among dogs and humans, both.

i do not mind in the least if the dog says i am hungry, i'm tired, thirsty, bored, lonesome, don't feel good... -
or even, i would rather do this... i often ASK dogs what they would rather - play fetch, or go for a hike?
swim or wade? i will even ask if they want to relax or train - it's OK to express an opinion.

i DO however reserve the right to say, sorry, bub - this is serious, we gotta do this now.
i rarely have any problem with this - my mare + i took turns choosing which way we went, and there was no friction.
turnabout or flexible decision-making has been fine, for me; i solicit votes, whenever possible.

there ARE of course things that were firm rules; my Akita was never allowed on my bed, for instance.
toileting indoors was an absolute no-no, too; but these really are pretty minimal, IME.
most stuff is negotiable, many times.
i never saw an episode that i recall past the 1st-USA-season where *stilwell* laid out who-eats-first rules, let alone demonstrated nibbling saltines on-camera over the dog's bowl, so i think it was very short-lived.

i never worry about when the dog eats vis-a-vis the owners -
so long as meals are not immediately-before training with food-rewards, or exercise,
it really is immaterial. dogs should eat 2x / day not once, to reduce gobbling, anxiety + RG, the risk of bloat,
the odds of obesity - but Who Eats First has never troubled me.

i don't know of any pos-R trainer who is relatively high-profile and says humans should eat first,
or feed the dog after - let alone that one should 'fake' eating from the dog's bowl before feeding.

JMO + IME,
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Thanks for the explanation, Terry. What you've said makes sense. The last time I had a puppy was in pre-internet days and just had the trainer at the puppy school to learn from. This time round I am really enjoying learning from you and others like you. Positive reinforcement training makes so much sense and is so much more enjoyable for owner and dog.

i really can't see this as rival-TRAINERS -
CM/DW caters to an entirely-different audience; older-men, military and police, and other authoritarian folks -
gang-members, status-seekers, celebrities, etc, ppl who really care about ranking -
will find Dog-Whisperer immediately + intuitively more appealing; humans LOVE hierarchy, it matters to us -
everything from in-groups in middle-school to class-ranking at high-school graduation *matters* enormously.

i see Stilwell Vs CM/DW as more a contrast of philosophy + methods -
motivate or correct? reward or punish? manage or set-up a sting?

IMO -
the folks who really worship hierarchy, believe wolves achieve leader-status by fighting vs parenthood, and are angry
if their dog embarrasses them by not understanding what behavior is being demanded, are not going to change
until they SEE that this system as demonstrated on Dog-Whisperer, is not a highly-successful set of hypotheses -
it will have to blow-up on them, first. then - they'll change.

IME the folks who are already using predominantly management to prevent unwanted behaviors, and TEACHING
to install desired behaviors on cue, will have no reason to change methods - it doesn't matter if they cannot stand
*stilwell* - hate the accent, the wardrobe, the show gestalt, the sponsors, who cares what?
they can break out in a rash every time they see *vic* it doesn't matter, there are thousands of other
valid, highly-reputable sources. *pryor, geller, mcConnell, donaldson, miller, white, tarrant, handelman, rugaas,
-kikopup, -Dog-Giggler, -vikidobe, and others in books, on YouTube, on DVDs, in seminars, on-line, all over.

the biggest 'source' for CM/DW-type handling [not training ] is Koehler in the 1950s + 60s -
there are no other high-profile models of that method/those tools, his 'instinct', Grandad's stories, etc.
he is a one-off model - with mimics who are ca$hing-in on his fan-base, but none are charismatic or nationally
or globally known figures. they are wannabes - carbon-copies, not stand-alone individuals.

JMO + IME,
--- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

i wrote this...

and a THIRD person replied...

now WHERE did i say the ethologist was smarter? i was pointing out that ethologists are trained to observe
animal behavior; grocery-managers are trained to know about retail sales, refrigeration, costs and margins...
jeepers, what a complete mis-read. what a bummer.
- terry

I know Terry you will have something to say to me on this (and prob a few others) but I don't think that Victoria Stillwell is good enough to 'compete' with CM and his empire.
Her technique, spiel and lets be honest her knowledge is not good enough and too easy to poke holes in - if we want to 'compete' (don't like the term here) with DW and the likes we have to be bullet proof and very very very good.
I have watched all her eps from the UK series' and all the US ones that have been aired here so far (there may be more?) but she is just not good enough. Don't get me wrong when it first started in the UK she was worse and seems to have got better advisors/researchers and certainly R+ friends since she went stateside but those early eps are still available to watch invarious places around the web and occassionally repeated on TV

To truly promote the R+ message we need someone better able to represent R+ training. Just my two cents and concern

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