Because the other two products are predominantly grain. From your final sentence, I gather you don't feed raw meaty bones after all? They're much higher in protein than Orijen.

I feed raw the majority of time as it happens, but tend to stick to fowl and game, which is easily come by this time of year, during the summer months I admit to feeding the frozen raw on occassion. My post regarding the protien and large breeds was based on the fact that at the end of the day we are talking of a 'processed' food here and not a natural diet.

There is a vast difference from the protein contained in that of natural foods then that of processed foods imo - one is much alike to the other, and AG & Burns are both good quality food for those that choose this type of diet.

Ah I see. But still, saying Orijen is too high in protein was a sweeping statement considering raw food (including fowl and game) is way higher in protein than that. Your post said "irrespective of source" which to me came across as meaning raw food too, which as I said is way higher in protein than Orijen.

At least Orijen is 40% animal protein rather than 18% grain protein as with many processed foods. Call it the best of a bad bunch if you will (I'll certainly never disagree that raw is best!) but it's still the case.

Are you saying that animal protein is much alike to grain and gluten protein in processed foods? I know you're only stating an opinion (as am I) but I'm pretty sure that's very incorrect! Feed a dog grain protein when it's allergic and I'm sure it'll disagree quite violently, compared to being fed a meat protein diet! Apples and oranges, although again I agree raw is naturally superior, if you'll pardon the pun.

Not at all, you have every right to disagree with me, as I stated earlier it is my opinion that feeding dry complete is the lazy way of feeding. I have to confess to knowing very little about the origen, but as I did state the protien levels (bearing in mind we are still talking a food that has been heavily refined) would be of a major concern to me with a large breed, or infact any puppy. And if my memory serves me correctly origen did (note I said did used to use grain) just think the 'disguised it so as to speak! So I can only assume that ''grain' under whatever guise has been totally removed for the origen!

Looking back in the internet archives, Orijen has always been grain free. But again that's a cursory check and I may be wrong. But why advertise it as basically dried "raw" (in the natural sense) food (which to be fair, it is - check out their site, even I was impressed at the sourcing and cooking process they use, and I hadn't touched kibble for years!) if it had only just recently become so? Surely they'd just bring out a new product and market it as such rather than move an existing product to being grain free.

Actually the whole company's philosophy revolves around that concept and there are certainly no grains in there, hidden or otherwise, on the ingredients list. Are you perhaps confusing it with their (Champion Pet Foods) "Acana" product which does contain grains?

Your knowledge regarding the BARF diet versus the Complete dried diet is obviously based on far more experience that I would ever be able to offer. I do still stand by my convictions that BARF and DC cannot be compared, and if one chooses to feed a dry diet over a natural diet then still the processing of such needs to be considered and awareness needs to be drawn to the fact that they are still miles apart.

Taking into consideration the cost of the 'better' processed foods again I can offer no recommenation as to which is 'best', but also to be remember is that dogs in the wild would have eaten a multitude of foodstuff - including grain - albeit unprocessed.

David Mech has spent decades researching wolves in the wild professionally, and published some brilliant, detailed books based on that research. Nowhere does he mention wolves eating grain, let alone as 60% to 80% of their diet. Big distinction, and definitely unhealthy! Wolves don't even eat the stomach contents of their prey (contrary to urban myth).

Thanks for this interesting little exchange, it's always nice to 'bash heads' with another raw feeder (regardless of my 'like' of Orijen for what it is, I'm still a die hard raw feeder!). I'm off to my bed now, goodnight all.

Thank you too for a cracking debate, your knowledge re BARF in as yet unriveled. the content of your posts most interesting.
I shall however remain to disagree regarding the wild dogs avoidance of grain. YES, I would agree there would be very little grain any they certainly would not be subjected to 'cooked' grain But by eating intestinal contents (which I believe they do) they would digest some, albeit ground to a pulp, and very unlike any modern diet containing masses of cooked and processed grain.

OK I admit I'm still awake, just finishing my smoke and my drink... I got your reply notification email so I wanted to give you the courtesy of a reply while I'm still here. Wolves (domesticated dogs are 100% proven to be nothing but grey wolves visually altered - see R Wayne's paper in the Journal of Molecular Biology, I can provide a full reference if you'd like to read it) definitely do not ever eat stomach contents, here is some direct evidence for you:

I hope you'll find Myths About Raw: Do wolves eat stomach contents of prey? interesting, and the many other 'myths of raw feeding' on that site. It's a FANTASTIC read for any pet owner, and fully scientifically referenced unlike most of the stuff "published" online.

RIGHT!!! I'm definitely off to my bed hehe I bid you a very goodnight, and I'm not copping out or anything, quite happy to return to this in the morning. Actually since your husband is into falconry (I read your profile lol), and you are a raw feeder, we'd probably have much more fun (and fill the board with less guff) if we took this off-list so to speak. You can catch me on MSN or email - I'd love to chat more. I'll PM you the details before I go.

TTFN.