Without meaning to sound rude (there's been quite enough of that going on recently, not on this thread but a few ruffled feathers elsewhere), but I've never told people that all kibble is rubbish, and respect their views if they feel that a good quality kibble is nutritionally right for their dog(s), who am I to argue? I don't take the mickey out of anyone who has researched and believe they are feeding their dog or any pet, a good diet, which is why I feel you are coming across as harsh.

I prefer to raw feed because I don't like feeding processed foods, studies have linked different kind of processing and food manufacture to all sorts of illnesses and disease. I eat as many fresh ingredients as I can myself, and give my dogs good fresh food, although they don't mind the occasional bit of processed left overs in there either, but then who doesn't like the occasional bit of 'naughty' food. Any basic science will tell you raw is much better as long as it's presented in a way that nutrients can be absorbed.

RAW Truth: Raw Fresh Produce Vs. Cooked Food | yourgreensite.net - a green web portal devoted to organic and sustainable lifestyle, travel, holistic health, environment, art and design

One article among many, if you start to look at the benefits of eating raw food, with links to scientific studies.

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has it's limits - Albert Einstein


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No - that's fair enough - I was only asking.

As for "offence"? You don't have to worry about that here.

Unlike having to do so when it comes to certain other members.

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There is no such thing as "just a dog, "just a cat" or even "just a flea".
Always remember that humans are animals too, and to treat every living thing with respect.

"You can tell the quality of what goes into a dog, by the quantity of what comes out"

I'm not sure just what you mean by this?? Other than trying to make a provocative remark, or cheap shot at me or someone else who doesn't necessarily agree with feeding kibble, in which case I'm afraid it just doesn't work. A saying I often go by, I value the opinion of those I respect

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has it's limits - Albert Einstein


http://www.tarimoorgundogs.co.uk/

Two good books:

Dr Tom Lonsdale's - Raw Meaty Bones.
Dr Ian Billinghurst - Give your dog a bone.

Useful link:
Dog Digestion | BarfWorld: Fresh Frozen Dog Food

The definition of a dog is definitely carnivore. It doesn't have the teeth of an omnivore but will eat a variety of foods to survive as it's an opportunist, just like the fox. As it cannot always hunt for prey unlike the cat, it will eat a variety of foods. His teeth are nothing like that of the omnivorous human, having no molars for grinding and his digestive tract is shorter and better equipped for eating and digesting meat, as this link explains: Fact Or Fiction - Are Dogs Omnivores?

Carnivore vs. Omnivore
definition of dog from Oxford Dictionaries Online

My teeth are nothing like my dogs, thank goodness and to date I don't know of any human who has such, unless of course they've had them altered to be that way, lol.

This isn't meant as a slur to anyone feeding kibble etc., just a response - all be it late - to a question asked of me earlier in this thread.

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Flynn - Kali - Marty - Britches - Bruce - T-Bo



"For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

I love it! What a good site it made me giggle at the first paragraph
“The typical species in its natural pristine environment lives seven times past its age of maturity. Humans normally mature in their late teens to early twenties. Our average potential life span in robust wellness is actually in the range of 120-140 years. This is never actualized due to the effects of heating food and not learning to skillfully handle psychological stress through self-mastery..”
Lordy how did they come to that conclusion? Based on any evidence? No! I could as easily say the reason we don’t live to two hundred is because we live in houses and so live an un-natural life lol. I do love the site, I thought of spending lunch going through it to highlight all the dodgy claims/science but I expect it would be a little cruel so I will just say that it uses a lot of jargon but doesn’t seem to know what the jargon means. Ah thank you Horse and hound.

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"Great is the power of steady misrepresentation, but the history of science shows that this power does not long endure" Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 6th edition

Thanks for your reply Malmum, your “Two good books” are books written to sell, if the authors were really looking to forward veterinary science there ideas would first have been published in a veterinary journal were they could be reviewed by their peers ie vets who specialize in the field. They weren’t which suggests the authors doubted there own conclusions/science, the Aitkin’s diet has been described a “good book” but I wouldn’t base a healthy diet on it, maybe take some ideas on board but that would be it.
A quick look at your links;
Dog Digestion | BarfWorld: Fresh Frozen Dog Food
this is a site selling frozen meat and so hardly unbiased, but hay ho, lets have a look, a quote

“The definition of a dog is definitely carnivore. It doesn't have the teeth of an omnivore but will eat a variety of foods to survive as it's an opportunist, just like the fox. As it cannot always hunt for prey unlike the cat, it will eat a variety of foods. His teeth are nothing like that of the omnivorous human, having no molars for grinding and his digestive tract is shorter and better equipped for eating and digesting meat,…”
Unfortunately this doesn’t look at the whole picture and ignores some very salient points. A wolf/dog doesn’t need the grinding teeth as that process mastication of the vegetable matter has already been done by the prey animal. Having gutted many rabbits, hares etc over the years I can assure you that a hare caught in the morning has a large amount of vegetable matter in its stomach, around a quarter of its body weigh, and this has been broken down already so the dog/wolf only has to digest it, it needs teeth to break don the carcass so it can digest this calorie source rather than ones to re masticate. I don’t understand the bit “As it cannot always hunt for prey unlike the cat” that’s lost me lol, do dogs have Bank holidays?.
The next link falls at the same hurdle Fact Or Fiction - Are Dogs Omnivores? “The second factor is their digestive system. Dogs do not have enzymes in their saliva that can quickly break down starches and carbohydrates. This task is placed on the pancreas. A dog's pancreas only can produce a small amount of enzymes, if a dog eats a small portion of vegetation. If you feed your dog large amounts of vegetables, its pancreas is pushed to the limit. Pushing any organ to the limit is hazardous to any animal's health.”
The dog doesn’t add amylase in at chewing as it doesn’t chew, it adds it in at the stomach, just as we do, as that is where it is needed and it’s not “pushed to the limit” any more than you would be if you ate a burger in a bun. It’s this infant school idea that evolution has reached a point and everything is black and white and can be put in little boxes. From carnivore to herbivore is a continuum rater than fixed points so most species can move along to a degree as a human can be a carnivore as with the Inuit traditionally having virtually no vegetable matter in their diet or a hill collie of the last century eating oats yet still working long and hard. Cats are true carnivores, humans omnivores and dogs fall between the two in digestion, I can give more info but it gets a little heavy so on to the next quote;

Carnivore vs. Omnivore “Scientists can argue forever as to whether our dogs today are carnivores requiring a high protein dog food with a few omnivorous traits or omnivores that still retain their 40 million year old carnivore anatomy and physiology – wouldn’t it be easier if we let mans best friend make the decision. Next time you have a chance…put an ear of corn alongside a piece of steak and see which dog diet your pet naturally selects.”
Well put an ear of corn along side a steak and I would eat the steak, so I must be a carnivore! It’s a nonsensical statement (in truth a Devon cream tea would be better perhaps this means I’m a clotted creamivore). Slightly more seriously I agree dogs should get a high protein/meat diet but argue that carbs have their place and cooking/completes aren’t the evils they are made out to be but mainly I hate pseudo science.
Lastly a dogs teeth are very different from a wolves they are much smaller in comparison to body size which means that they aren’t as good at dealing with larger pieces and perhaps this is why there are so many instances of dogs choking, basically we’ve bred for smaller teeth for so long and to such an extent that its having an impact on feeding. It may be an idea to look beyond slightly dodgy none professional web sites and look at the vet’s journals etc as this is where the new science is found and ideas presented.
Regards sandy.

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"Great is the power of steady misrepresentation, but the history of science shows that this power does not long endure" Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 6th edition

sue&harvey thanks for your reply in answer to a couple of points, quoted in italics;
"It does come acoss as your way or the highway though. What is laughable to you is your opinion on something, just as others value the resource. People don't tend to like "to be made" to see anything. Offered other resources mabey."

I know I’m terrible but afraid I fell in to the trap of critical thinking so when I read a web site I think about what is written and unfortunately many of these sites work on the principle that most just believe without thinking, perhaps I should stop thinking. There is loads of research that show if you challenge beliefs that are based on poor foundations the believer clings more tightly to those questionable beliefs as a way of protecting against having to admit to being fooled. Or in old speak you can’t put knowledge into a closed brain. Personally I enjoy my thoughts and suggestion being challenged as it gives me new areas to look into and knowledge to consider, I would love for raw to be the answer to all our problems but alas it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, a sensible balanced diet remains the winner so far. I hope people don’t take to much offence as my posts look at the evidence people put forward and don’t judge the poster who I’m sure in the majority of cases are acting on what they believe to be the best intentions.


"I don't really see what youre getting at to be honest. One min you are saying cooked ad another something on Kibble."

Sorry you lost me there. Perhaps kibble is cooked?


"The relevence of the photos me. If they are titled Kibble fed dogs, perhaps you could reference the page?"

Reference the page? Pics of dogs are the ones, not the lizard etc i don't expect they eat cooked.
Sandy.

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"Great is the power of steady misrepresentation, but the history of science shows that this power does not long endure" Charles Darwin, Origin of Species 6th edition

Would have thought all books published are sold, that's why we buy them, to read their contents - newspapers & magazines too. Perhaps you know where we can get them free - please tell!

I think it's a real shame the OP's thread has been completely highjacked in this way - at least the OP may find something useful in the links the rest of us are posting! Hope so!

Just for the record - are you a scientist?

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Flynn - Kali - Marty - Britches - Bruce - T-Bo



"For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

I thought the point of this thread was to debate raw food. This is what is happening imo, so not sure why you think that it has gone off track?

Sandymere, do you honestly just get off on being so sarcastic and rude to people who don't happen to hold the same opinion as you? Really, perhaps you need to stop just copying and pasting your own posts from forum to forum and actually do something constructive.

There's absolutely no point in even trying to respond to your sheer rudeness and ignorance. You obviously *think* you are absolutely right because your links are better than mine, how childish. You ignore basic science that tells us that in the majority of cases, processing food devalues the nutrients, and combining fresh ingredients helps us to absorb the most vitamins and minerals.

You don't perhaps sell kibble do you Is there an ignore button???

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The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has it's limits - Albert Einstein


http://www.tarimoorgundogs.co.uk/