You both make very good points and I agree with you, it's just crazy. Leave the Wolves alone.

There are that many breeds and designer dogs around, if you can't find a dog you like out of all these, perhaps a dog is not for you.

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Sorry about any wrong spelling, but I'm feed up of looking things up in the dictionary

errrmmm, No - we were saying that OUT-crossing domestic dogs ===> to wolves <====
should be banned, and that such hybridization is bad for both dogs + wolves - just like breeding a liger
[tiger x lion] or zebronkey [zebra x donkey] or coy-dog [coyote x dom-dog], it is bad for the domestic-species
and bad for the wild-species, too.

in the USA they are not aiming to stabilize a 'breed' like the CSV or Saarloos, they cross any dog
[mostly prick-eared Nordics or shepherd-breeds] to ANY wolf - Arctic, timber, red, Eastern-Canuk,
Mackenzie Valley, from wherever - and then the progeny are sold.
most are 50-50 dom-dog X whatever-wolf; some are high-percentage, a few are 16% or 25%.

as i already said - YOU do not have a wolf-hybrid - YOU have a domestic-dog,
the product of 2 breeds that approx 35 to 45 years ago, were out-crossed to a wolf, or a few wolves.
EVERY ancestor since then has been a dom-dog, so the wolf-genes are still there, but not as recent,
intense or prominent. if they were DNA-profiled, i would bet less than 10% and possibly as low as 5%,
have wolf-markers.

yet notice how profoundly that small percentage continues to affect the Saarloos -
* because * the breeders continue to select for high-reactivity, neophobia and timidity,
not for confidence, exploratory and calm, thoughtful responses, highly human-affiliative,
interested to meet new-humans, not rattled by new objects, settings and experiences.
'domestication' is not easy, simple or one trait only - it is very broad, indeed.

cheers,
- terry

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

I read something a few years ago about people getting these 'cool' wolf/dog hybrids, finding out they can't cope when they show more wolfish characteristics than doglike ones & abandoned them to fend for themselves. There were concerns about these hybrids polluting the gene pool of true wolves, I can't remember where I read this but it was an interesting article & a sobering thought when you think about how these completely unsuitable people seem to be able to get hold of them

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congratulations but Ur Saarloos x Czech WH is not a 'hybrid'.

i entirely fail to see how wolf-hybrids - defined as wolf X dom-dog - can be 'bred for temp' by combining 2 animals
of such divergent behaviors.

* wolves are monogamous and pair-bond
* Ms tend their mates, provide food while she dens, feed pups, and pup-sit; they actively participate in rearing pups

* un-related wolves will readily adopt any young pups under 4-MO - they will wet-nurse, feed by regurgitation,
etc, as for their own progeny

* young wolves who are past-puberty but not ready to disperse help rear their younger siblings -
both M + F wolf-juvies will argue for the chance to tend pups.

like adults, wolf-juvies will take under their care any younger wolf who is orphaned, lost, or simply plunked
in front of them; feeding, minding, playing with them, letting them tag along while they hunt small prey, etc.

* dom-dogs are polygamous with NO pair-bond - when estrus ceases, M-dogs disappear

* bitches are on their own to rear pups, and must feed themselves and their pups

* dogs do not immediately-adopt puppies -
Except Fs who have recently-whelped, or Fs who have reared litters:
some allow a needy pup to nurse, triggering lactation, oxytocin and bonding;
many want nothing whatever to do with pups not their own, except play -
UNLESS they recently whelped and lost a litter,
OR their recent-litter is augmented by non-related pups/non-dog infants.

* M-dogs whether adult or post-6-MO rarely have an extended interest in any pups, even their own;
they MAY play with pups, but don't feed, tend, wash bottoms/eat waste, mind, guide, etc.
if they are tired of playing, they grumble the pup away, or leave the puppy, whichever is easiest.

* young dogs will play with pups - but have no deep-desire to feed, guide, mind, etc.
dom-dogs have been separated from wolves for many thousand years, at least;
that wolves were the species of origin is indisputable - and we also have some DNA-evidence that the Arabian wolf
was the progenitor species - a wolf that hunts alone, but communally feeds the single litter and the dam.
these are not dramatic hunts of cooperative predation on large game - they eat small game, clear down to insects.

alleging that wolves and dom-dogs are INTERCHANGEABLE is a ludicrous statement, IMO + IME.

* dom-dogs have a longer intestine than wolves - dogs are omnivores, not primarily-predators with fruit added, in season
again, a Saarloos x Czech-wolf-dog does not qualify as a 'hybrid' - hybrids are 4 or fewer generations
from a 'pure' wolf.

i have met quite a few hybrids - only ONE of the many was a happy animal, a F who lived contentedly in their home,
tolerated visitors and would play with them, but had no interest in being petted by them; she would let them
touch her, but if they persisted, would move away.
she was crated when they left her at home solo; she was spayed at 5-MO, extensively socialized + intensively
and carefully habituated. she rode in the car, but did not enjoy it - altho she did not fuss, she would drool.

the others were all unhappy animals; they dug in the yard or pen, destroyed anything not stone or metal
which they could get to, were UNsocial to non-family [either flee or growl or attempt to bite; snap at any
non-family hand; could not be examined or handled by the vet without a muzzle, and preferably sedated
even with a muzzle; etc].

i imagine that U saw the bite statistic? wolf-hybrids are a tiny slice of approx 75-million canines kept as USA-pets;
yet that tiny percentage was the agent of One in Five serious attacks resulting in mauling that needs plastic-surgery,
or kills the person.
this clearly indicates that either their aggro or their fear is utterly disproportionate, compared to the fears
or aggro of dom-dogs, in similar circs.

the majority of wolf-hybrids are neophobic once past 4 to 6-MO: new ppl, new places, new settings
are not interesting, but disturbing. they rarely accept new humans as completely after-puberty
as the average dog - i am not referring to 'aggressively social' breeds like Labs, some Goldens,
and many pitbulls, who mug total-strangers for petting and lick them as if they were ice-cream -
but ordinary dogs, who after meeting a person once or twice casually, will allow them to pick up
a paw without worry, walk them away from home on a leash, bathe or brush them without fussing much,
and otherwise are very tolerant of non-family handling or interference.

*nicole wilde* is a fellow USA-apdt member who has reared and lived with multiple hybrids,
worked in hybrid-rescue, and done B-Mod for hybrid-owners to address behavioral issues -
she is widely acknowledged as an expert on wolf-hybrids, and has written several books on them.
here is an assortment of articles, books, etc, by *nicole -
nicole wilde on wolf-hybrids - Google Search

and a QUOTE - from ABOUT.com
Wolf Hybrid Awareness Through Education (WHATE section 1)
Note:
"perimeter fence" = a fence AROUND the fence - separated by at least 8-ft from the inner-fence.

my wolf-hybrid destroyed - Google Search

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terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

OMG!!! what are you people going on about, the statement that wolf hybrids are a "ticking time bomb that will go off at some point" and "is an accident waiting to happen" is pure rubbish and speculation, as the time bomd has already exploded, not by the "evil" wolf hybrid that you all keep harping on about but by the very cuddly, oh so sweet, standard breeds you all defend with such utter ignorance. Every fatal attack that has occured in the UK has been caused by the domesticated dog you seem oblivious to as a potentially dangerous animal. To pick out a wolf hybrid as a potential killer is pure speculation, the fact is that many other breeds, which are far more common place, are responsible for deaths and injuries.

Just because you may have heard of someone once or maybe seen one of these dogs once do something isnt fact, its hearsay and is not worth the time to write about. The fact is ALL dogs have the potential to commit harm to other dogs and humans if not properly handled. We seem ignorant to this fact and like to complain that this shouldnt happen or that is wrong, when you may be the cause of an attack on another person by not giving the dog you own the respect it needs. Just because you love your dog and think its the best pet in the world does not mean it would not cause harm to others, very many dogs attack through over protection of its owner, and its not the dogs fault, its the owners!!! But of course that would never happen with one of you, how many owners have thought or said that and been shown to be truely ignorant of the animal they have beside them.

I can give you hundreds of examples of dog attacks in the UK, and I am sorry to say its the same breeds that you may own, the media has demonised some dog breeds to such an extent they have been covered by the dangerous dogs act. These dogs are domesticated animals, NONE of which are wolf hybrids, ALL are breeds that certain people love and adore and many fine examples exist of their breed and are even shown at Krufts.

All I can say is grow up people and smell the roses because to say one breed has the potential to attack over another breed is rubbish, no dog is a saint, but humans are the only species that can be sinners, and we prove that each and every day.

Dont blame the attack on the dog, blame the human that thinks its a lovely dog and of course comes trained straight out of the pet shop or from the breeder. Its takes a dedicated owner to have a stable dog, the day you take your eye off the ball is the day you end up in court and your dog is put down. Dont kid yourself that this will never happen to you and look down on people that you think are wrong for what they feel is the right pet for them, look down on the ignorant and stupid that seem to blindly take certain breeds of dogs as the only breeds to own as all others are stupid, dont look right, are too big, too small, too hairy, not hairy enough. This all sounds stupid but I have had people come up to me and say they love dogs and then in the same breath say that they hate big dogs as they are to big, that is a personal preference and not a fact that big dogs are more dangerous than other breeds.

I bet you that some of you have huskies or GSDs at the moment or have done in the past, these dogs a far more common place and are far more likely to attack another dog or a human as we as a species have breed them for certain traits, huskies are a working dog, and make very poor house pets, GSDs were breed as sheep dogs, but we re-engineered them to be more agressive and assertive for guard dog duties. Even the tiny jack russel " that a huge number of people own in my area BTW" was breed to be a hunting dog. We seem to forget that the majority of dog breeds were engineered to serve a purpose, keeping dogs as family pets is a very recent event, and keeping a dog of any kind indoors is unatural, and even cruel for some breeds.

So people, I ask again look at what your saying and before you condem someone or something, look at what you are doing and have done, what negatives can you find in the breed of dog that you own, and how many attacks is that breed responsible for in the world.

BTW, doing a search on wolf hybrids being destroyed is a very singular search and produces results from the USA where access to wild wolves for illegal breeding does occurr, can I ask you to do a simular search for dog attacks in the UK, you will be surprised by what you get back, more tails of woe and sorrow about common dog breeds being shot by farmers and put to sleep after attacking a human or worrying live stock!!

I will be honest about this and say is the wolf hybrid is gaining popularity within the UK then this is a positive and not the negative that you all keep going on about. Different does not mean wrong or bad, if you start down this road, when no harm or cruelty is being actually acted upon a animal for breeding purposes, then you slip down the road of being biggots and end up like the NAZI's, blame the defenceless and destry what you dont understand. The RSPCA has never condemed a wolf hybrid or any other breed just for existing, it has how ever condemed the standards which certain dogs are breed to, and these standards are set by YOU!!!

And as far as leashedforlifes thought on the subject matter, UM, the wolf hybrids allowed to be owned in the UK and fall outside of the dangerous wild animal act the saarloos and Czech wolf dog are named, many other so called wolf hybrids exist but are not descended from wolves and are just crossings of huskies and GSDs. The saarloos and the czech wolf dogs that you say are not the ones that fall into the wolf hybrid catagory are the very ones you are condeming. Get your facts straight, and then think again about what you are trying to say, its true that some people own wolf hybrids with verying genetic makups and degrees of wolf in them, but then whats wrong with that. It take a good owner to be responsible with any breed of dog and a poorly handle labrador is just as deadly as a poorly trained Saarloos wolf dog. Aparantly for you ignorance is bliss

Think once, Think twice and if you dont actaully know then keep quiet!

I have never once said wolf hybrids are evil! the people who breed them are the only ones i'd label with that title! you have totally missed my point its because i DO care about them that im so against the breeding of them! what i believe is these animals can never be truely happy in captivity, they can never live in the wild so therefore they should never be bred, its selfish!!!! look at all the hybrid rescues in the USA even those who run these sanctuarys beg people not to breed/buy these poor animals.

in this county as ive said before the majority of saarloos and CWD's are crossed with other breeds and bred for one reason only to line the pockets of byb's... its just pure exploitation of these dogs.

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"If the wolf is to survive, the wolf haters must be outnumbered. They must be outshouted, out financed, and out voted. Their narrow and biased attitude must be outweighed by an attitude based on an understanding of natural processes."
L David Mech

We have doomed the Wolf not for what it is, but for what we have deliberately and mistakenly perceived it to be..the mythologized epitome of a savage, ruthless killer..which is, in reality no more than a reflexed images of ourself." -Farley Mowat

Yeah.... right.....









As far as attacking other dogs or humans - huskies are incredibly gregarious and playful and any aggression towards dogs or people is either a sign of very poor socialisation or some kind of disorder.

Mick

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DREAMCATCHER SIBERIAN HUSKIES
Siberian Husky Welfare Association (UK)
"For I am a raindog too!" - Tom Waits
"Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see" - Benjamin Franklin
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities" - Voltaire

Bloody hell, Mick!

I count nine dogs in that first pic but no dog hair!

You using a spray-on glue or something?

I'm a mite confused. The linked article in the OP says...

Later Terry considers...

So does the objection here centre around a single generation?