I'm sorry, Jackson, but it is UTTERLEY irresponsible to walk an in season bitch. If a bitch HAS to be walked... and I have never yet owned one for whom it was detrimental to keep in... there are plenty of other ways to occupy a dog without taking it for walks.... then take it to the nearest industrial estate where there are no dogs around.

It matters not how experienced breeders are, that has no relevance to how responsible they are or how considerate....

An entire dogs owner does not know an in season bitch is being walked until it's dog gets out. A bitch's owner is (or should) be thoroughly aware of the situation. If they cannot manage it then they should get the bitch spayed. That is the responsiblity that comes with owning an entire bitch. Yes, entire owners also have responsibility to have control of their dogs, but the urge to mate is too strong for many, and they owners have no previous knowledge. The weight of responsibility HAS to rest with the bitches owner.

I'm staggered that on the one hand you advocate NOT neutering pets and on the other consider it acceptable to walk in season bitches....

If I come across a little heavy on this issue I make no apologies.... it has to be one of the most important areas of dog ownership... responsible owning of entire dogs... and as has been illustrated can so easily lead to unwanted puppies and possible a dog being killed or worse, causing an accident in which people are hurt, because it is following a natural, powerful instinct.

And, just to add. Your comment that the dog should be neutered doesn't hold water. I know quite a few neutered dogs that are attracted to in season bitches... and have tied... they have not produced puppies, but it does not necessarily stop what is a very strong instinct.

It's to be commended that they have kept the dog and bitch apart but taking her out while in season, particularly at the fertile time in her season is STILL irresponsible. If they cannot cope or do not have the right environment to keep an entire bitch and dog then they shouldn't have them. There are no excuses that make it acceptable. The behaviour of the collie is somewhat irrelevant. The behaviour of many entire dogs around bitches has been ruined by irresponsible bitch owners walking their dogs in season.

There was a thread recently discussing to neuter or not. There was much support against neutering saying that education is the key. If people take no notice or make excuses and continue to think it acceptable... then education is not going to work.... I rest my case....


I see red on this subject... so will try to put things in a nutshell as to WHY an in season bitch shouldn't be walked, and why it is not enough just to be responsbile for the bitch.

Being responsible for an in season bitch does not ONLY involve keeping her safe from other dogs... it ALSO means managing her welfare so as not to cause problems or distress to other dogs owners, particularly male dog owners, whose behaviour can be negatively influenced by coming into contact with inseason bitches, or the repercussions of what happens if a male dog is desperate to get to said bitch.

W live in an area of town where it is common for lazy people to just let their dog out the door to wander the streets. most of these dogs are entire males. it is these owners who are not being responsible as most of these dogs have fathered litters and the owners know about this and have gotten the pick of the litter.

Yes we take them to an industrial estate to walk and were on our way there, but have to walk as do not own a car, so having to walk past the shop.
There is no other option to letting her pee.. he does not want her to think peeing inside is acceptable so doent want to use pads. and as she is a young lively dog she needs a fair amount of excercise.

He's being responsible as he is not allowing her to have this litter of unwanted pups. And it is quite clear he is able to keep an entire male and in heat female in the same house as this is her 2nd season and he has never got her pregnant.

I used to foster an entire male and he could jump my fence no bother so I made him a pen as i know what males can b like and living in an area with lots of dogs I didnt want him running off and being run over.
they chose not to have him castrated as he was a kc reg bred for showing, therefor i had to adapt around this, as should other responsible dog owners.

you are never going to get an ideal world where all dog owners believe the same thing.. but if all owners made sure their dog cannot escape its garden then it would be a hell of alot better!

__________________

-MY DOGS ARE NOT MY WHOLE LIFE- BUT THEY MAKE MY LIFE WHOLE-

Dave and Dixie
Milo and Maisy

Taking an in season bitch out for a walk is irresponsible full stop.

I don't know what peeing inside has to do with it. I would question the wisdom of having a dog if you don't have a garden to use - particuarly one that apparently needs so much exercise. The fact that the owner appears more responsible than other owners around does not make them responsible... just marginally more responsible than others...

As for her temperament... if you are breeding you cannot afford to make excuses for poor temperament, even if you think there is a valid reason for it. ONLY dogs with EXEMPLERARY temperaments should be used for breeding.... NO exceptions.

When they got the dogs they were in a suitable place for 2 dogs with a large secure garden.
due to unforseen difficulties they have had to move to temporary accomodation for a short while.
getting rid of the dogs wasnt going to be an option. the only place available willing to accept pets has a **** garden

and well without being taken out to pee.. she would have to pee inside.

when my dog was on heat i managed to take her walks (as well as lots of garden and inside excercise) without her geting pregnant but then i dont live somewhere unsuitable.
bfore you ask- no i dont intend on breeding form her. yes i intend on getting her spayed but didnt have the money to get it done before her 1st season as i lost my job. she will be getting done in the next month or 2.

my friend has said however, he has learned from this experience. he will be taking her to the vet 1st thing 2mro for the jag, and will then be booking her in to be spayed.

it is not however, goin to stop the collie (and the others) straying as near me there are my neighbours who breed labs(working) and other neighbours who breed springers, also working. although all dogs do have proper kennels to keep other dogs out.
there are quite a number of people annoyed with certain dogs owners for letting them wander. someone who doesnt want her dog to be spayed as she is a border collie from great lines and kc reg but the collie hangs around her too.

people with entire dogs need to be aware that there are going to be people who dont want there females spayed for various reasons and should prepare for this.
part of being a responsible owner should be having a secure place for your dog. if he can escape to go after a bitch in heat he could escape anytime and get run over or if he got scared, hurt someone. it doesnt matter if a bitch is in season... you are always gonna get somewhere a bitch in season. it is the owners fault for not being able to manage keeping their dog in a safe environment!! An th fat popl ant kp thir og from gttin out shoul not stop othr rsponsibl owners walking their dog!

__________________

-MY DOGS ARE NOT MY WHOLE LIFE- BUT THEY MAKE MY LIFE WHOLE-

Dave and Dixie
Milo and Maisy

Firstly, it is not only entire dogs - many castrated dogs get these urges too... they will follow a bitch... they will tie... they simply will not produce puppies.

A dog owner cannot prepare for this - it is a primal urge... it is not something you can train for.... and while it may be possible to make your garden into a fortress on the offchance that some selfish bitch owner is going to take out their in season bitch, what happens if that dog owner is happily going for a walk when their dog picks up the scent that's been left by the bitch out. And while taking them to an industrial park is fine... walking there and leaving a trail for dogs to pick up defeats the object - if you do that you might just as well take them to the park. I rarely walk my in season bitch - it has no detrimental effect on her, and if I do (driving to an industrial estate), I would NEVER take her out during her most fertile period which it sounds like your friend did. Of course, bitches in season cannot help being in season, but they are not welcome anywhere in public and nor should they be.

There is one indisputable fact:

The well being of a bitch is firmly the responsibility of us bitch owners, not the dog owners. Bitches come into season (Unless we choose to neuter them) and we should all know that when we choose a bitch - if we cannot take that responsiblity then we should get a dog or get them spayed. I do not consider it the responsibility of someone I have never met before to build a fortress around their garden or train their male, or keep them on lead all the time, on the off chance that I may take my bitches out when in season. We are solely responsible for our own actions - not just for the sake of our own bitches, but, if we have any decency, for other dogs too.


I'm glad that your friend has decided to neuter the bitch in question - that at least, is a positive outcome.

Surely the comment 'in a responsible manner, away from other dogs' suggests there are no other dogs around, be it an industrial estate or not?


[/quote]
An entire dogs owner does not know an in season bitch is being walked until it's dog gets out. A bitch's owner is (or should) be thoroughly aware of the situation. If they cannot manage it then they should get the bitch spayed. That is the responsiblity that comes with owning an entire bitch. Yes, entire owners also have responsibility to have control of their dogs, but the urge to mate is too strong for many, and they owners have no previous knowledge. The weight of responsibility HAS to rest with the bitches owner. .[/quote]

I don't suggest it doesn't in a lot of ways. However, as I stated before, if my neighbour, several doors away has an entire dog and I let my own in season bitches out, in my own garden, causing her entire dog to jump out, do you think I'd hold full responsibility for that aswell? Entire or not, people should ensure that their garden is secure enough to stop their dogs escaping. If the entire dog were in an RTA, do you think the courts would say 'X' entire bitch should not have been anywhere near the hous,e or 'X' entire dog shoudl havebeen kept contained in it's garden?

.[/quote]
I'm staggered that on the one hand you advocate NOT neutering pets and on the other consider it acceptable to walk in season bitches....

If I come across a little heavy on this issue I make no apologies.... it has to be one of the most important areas of dog ownership... responsible owning of entire dogs... and as has been illustrated can so easily lead to unwanted puppies and possible a dog being killed or worse, causing an accident in which people are hurt, because it is following a natural, powerful instinct.

And, just to add. Your comment that the dog should be neutered doesn't hold water. I know quite a few neutered dogs that are attracted to in season bitches... and have tied... they have not produced puppies, but it does not necessarily stop what is a very strong instinct.[/quote]


Yes, I do consider it acceptable to walk in season bitches. In the right circumstances. For example. Previously I had access to the farm where I kept my horses. Large farm, no unknown dogs on the property, no other dogs within several miles radias, so I always knew what dogs were about when I walked my bitch there. Also, where we are now. Living in a secure army camp, so the only dogs here are ones I know and we are extremely lucky to have access to a private beach, no outside access, where I can walk the dogs. I wouldn't say that walking my in season bitches in either of these cases is irresponsible or inconsiderate to other dog owners.

I do think education is the key, and those that can't be educated shouldn't own a dog in the first place, entire or neutered. That's not to say I thinkt here should be a blanket no spay or neuter policy, I do agree with it is some cases. I simply do nto agree with it for my dogs, nor the fact that people bandy it about like some sort of cure all.

Thanks all for advice and help.. My friends vet is very reasonably priced for the mismate jag.. althought one of the jags has to be done on a sunday as there are 2 jags, on the 3rd an 5th day after mating. and its an extra £25 as its out of hours. but he dont mind that

anyone know if pdsa or any other organisation give money towards neutering? just a thought.but they prob dont.
Demi is feelin very sorry for herself today well im not surprised! she'l be ok tho.

__________________

-MY DOGS ARE NOT MY WHOLE LIFE- BUT THEY MAKE MY LIFE WHOLE-

Dave and Dixie
Milo and Maisy

I am interested that no-one actually responded to the original question here! Poisongirl asked about the cost of 'morning-after treatment' and eventually answered it herself about 16 hours later. We react emotionally which is not always helpful.

Nobody knew the answer, but people were trying to be as helpful as they could in the circumstances by offering advice that may prevent the same happening in the future.