several studies have found that dogs who are desexed even after they are marking, stop.
one study found that over 90% of male-dogs who were habitual markers indoors, stopped after desex -
with no other B-mod.

small-dogs are often never even properly housetrained, as their poop or pee is not seen as 'a big problem'
because it's a small quantity. Nobody gives a Dane/Deutsche Dogge or Newfie a free pass when they
housetrain, a quart of urine is a bit obvious.

little dogs who mark are also extremely hard to SEE doing it - a dog whose leg is only 6-inches long
isn't exactly obvious when they leg-lift, so i suggest belly-bands for male dogs of ANY size to prevent
marking indoors, & re-teaching the behavior outdoors.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

I am old enough to remember the last time they had dog licences. It started out at 7 shillings and 6 pence and never changed, except to 37 1/2 p. All you had to do was go buy one at the Post Office. Most people didn't bother. My parents always had two dogs, but I don't think they ever had a licence.

You are right; if it is anything like before, nobody will really care. If they did, and you had to prove yourself responsible before getting one, it might be worth investigating. However, I have to say I do not like the idea of some do-gooder deciding who should and should not have a dog. That job would, no doubt, go to someone who knows sweet FA about dogs, and probably doesn't like them much either.

__________________
http://www.gentle-newfoundland-dogs.com
http://www.royston-pet-care.co.uk



Will always miss you, my little Joshie Woshie xx

If you want real love, buy a dog

If you wouldn't use it on a child, don't use it on a dog

http://pettaxisg8.yolasite.com/
http://www.help-for-learner-drivers.yolasite.com/

this is an HTML version of a PDF-article, with 2 extensive articles
[including one by a Wolfhound breeder who happens to be a vet - he offers FREE desex to every puppy-buyer,
before the pup leaves for their new home; their last 2 litters left the breeder 100% desexed].

Early Spay_neuter

there are multiple links for further info at the end - a dozen or so.

to date, no studies have concluded that there are any serious unwanted effects due to pediatric
[pre-puberty] desex. Australia began pediatric-desex on a wide scale about 10-years ago.
in the USA, some shelters have done pediatric desex since 1976 [Denver, Colo.] - others began in the 1980s.
RESCUE organizations began to do pediatric desex by 1980, & many have been doing this for over 20-years.

if there were bad-health outcomes, the millions upon millions of cats & dogs who were desexed pediatrically
would provide an enormous pool of data - So where are the huge numbers of patients with serious issues?

why do the AVMA & AVSAB support early-desex without cautioning that it should be done only after counseling,
or some similar public-notice that it's potentially a problem?

EARLY is not pubertal, BTW - traditional desex is performed on pups or kittens from 5 to 7-MO.
EARLY = pediatric desex, which is done by shelters & rescues before releasing pups & kittens
to adopters; in VA it is legal to separate pups or kittens from dam & litter at 49-days, so litters in shelters
are desexed as soon as they have approved adopters & are 49-days AKA 7-weeks-age or OVER; if there is no
approved adopter & the shelter is crowded, entire litters may be euthanized at anything over 7-WO.

in most cities & states, 56-days / 8-WO is the earliest pups or kittens can be separated from their dam
or litter for any reason; INTERSTATE regulations make it illegal to transport any pup or kitten across state lines
without the whole family traveling together: all the pups or kittens, AND their dam, tho they may not be in
the same crate, to prevent Mum stepping, rolling, or lying on the babies.

this includes crossing state-lines for medical/vet care - NC breeders who have no in-state vet nearby
often come to VA vets, but legally they must transport not JUST the sick pup, but the litter & the dam, if the litter
is under 56-days-old.

shelters don't desex an animal first and THEN kill the animal; they desex only animals with adopters.
intact animals [of any age, young, old, adult] who are not adopted are often euthanized for space.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Sources please. As that 90% figure does not fit with my personal experience I want to see the sample numbers and how it was derived.

When I google this is what I find.

Neutering Male Dogs | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Urine Marking in Dogs: Why do Dogs Urinate to Mark Territory? on MedicineNet

This leaves many, many dogs still marking while neutered. Again, the message CANNOT be that desexing eliminates the need to train away from this behaviour in the majority of dogs.

I have trained MANY a small dog not to leg lift in a house --- and cannot concur with your assessment. If a trainer is waiting for the leg lift and peeing to take place then they will have trouble. What a trainer should be looking for IS the sniffing that takes place immediately before the leg is aimed . . . and if one is attentive that is not hard to see not matter what the dog's size.

The difficulty is, as you have suggested, many don't make the concentrated attentive effort as the size of the piddle spots are not significant. I suggest belly bands to many as well . . . but I have yet to meet a small dog that I havne't been able to train away from marking behaviour in my home, and I keep two intact small males here often, along with a few neutered small males. The two most persistant markers I've known have been early neutered and had lazy owners.


The good news is that for those dogs that neutering will help, apparently the "Center for Companion Animal Health, UC Davis" says

Terry - as I read it they were written in 1995 referencing studies done all before '93.

Where is this quote from, what does 'serious' mean to the writer? . . . and will it mean the same thing to me? When I read lines like "And what about the pediatric spay/neuter group? "The insult of the surgery seemed to be influencing behaviors in only a few cases,"", and afterward the author declare that those few cases are not significant, I get quite irritated that they've added their philosophy to the study to decide which is significant and which is not.

Have you read the studies referenced here? -

Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

Another - http://www.darlenearden.com/artclespay.htm


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i was not referring to trainers but to pet-owners.
when it comes to housetraining toy-breed pups, they often are really lousy at it.
male-marking in toy-breeds only exacerbates what's often an already-sloppy job.

bitch-pups are easier to SEE as they squat - and don't tell me they should look for sniffing & circling,
i know that. They don't, or don't listen when they are told so, or don't grasp the concept
when they read it.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

yes, i have read it - & it contains a number of conflated concepts & misattributed conclusions.
Zinks' article has a very complete rebuttal on the ShelterMedicine website.

MY CRITIQUE of Zinks' & a complete copy of the rebuttal [written by another vet], are already on PF-uk.
they are over a year old; i can't be bothered to dredge them up, as i am sure we would only waste time.
U are not interested in reading it.

my experience of pediatric-desex is based upon hundreds of pets i have seen, in classes, at events,
in public while on the beach, etc - plus my fellow-trainers observations, across the USA, in Australia
& the UK, in Europe, etc.
not one of us has seen the PREDICTED disasters that Zinks refers to as inevitable.

U are welcome to Ur opinion; i have mine, based on experience of many pets in many homes,
over more than 30-years of pediatric desex here in the USA, and millions of pets here and abroad.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

pediatric S/N or pediatric desex - Pet Forums Community

for anyone who is curious, the rebuttal of Zinks' article by another vet is at the end of the thread -
quoted in full, so no-one has to click a link to read it.

that is easily explained as being very likely the result NOT of spaying, but of in-utero androgenization.
even intact-females are well-known to leg-lift partially or fully, posture like males, etc -
male model behavior is a spectrum, in females as well as males.

there are perfectly normal male dogs who squat to pee, DON't start fights, & sire litters.
equally, there are perfectly normal bitches who leg-lift, DO start fights, & rear litters.

here is a previous article by Yin, DVM, on desex & female-behavior:
desex & behavior - Yin, DVM - Pet Forums Community

note that the AGGRO IS DISPLAYED FIRST, it is ABNORMALLY INTENSE & is also VERY EARLY ONSET -
often by 10-WO to 12-WO. these are not 'apparently normal' female pups, so it is not an excuse to avoid spaying.

__________________
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
*wolves R wolves, dogs R dogs, + primates R us.*
tmp, sept-2007

Terry - I AM A PET OWNER - when I suggest that a 'trainer' watch for the sniffing behaviour I am talking about a pet owner that is in the process of training their dog.

If I can do it the anyone can . . . if they WANT to. If they don't grasp the concept it is because they don't care, and no-one can make them.

I didn't ask if you had read the link - I asked if you had read the referenced studies . . . . as I have made the effort to read most of them . . . as a mere pet owner.

Please point to where Zink referenced predicted 'disasters'. I just reread and see no such thing. He does express significant concern . . . and I believe that is fair.

I have also read the rebuttal before (just read it again in fact), and it is obvious that you and I will sit on opposite sides here, as presented the same information I would respecfully draw different conclusions than the writer.

That is the point. All that want the information should be given the opportunity to decide for themselves.

And my experience is as a pet sitter that has been involved with dogs for over 30 years, starting out as a shelter volunteer, and as well is involved in more than one small dog meet up group. I know/have known hundreds of dogs, and as importantly, hundreds of owners that love their dogs and want to do right by them.

I, or no one else. needs an EXCUSE to avoid spaying (or neutering). We don't need to justify keeping animals intact. I resent the implication that that there should be an expectation for an excuse.

Spaying is a choice, and if I want to manage a specific female dog without spaying her and manage those risks vs the risks from spaying, through close observation and my knowledge, then I don't need to excuse that choice to anybody . . . and I fully understand what those risks are because I HAVE read the papers and run the math on both pyometra, mammary tumors (which many mistakenly misrepresent), thyroid problems, diabetes etc.

Spaying Bitchs

I know same old same old question but

Another on spay and aggression - http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/ca...behavior_worse

A 2010 study on neuter, structure and behaviour (excitability, fear, anxiety). - http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehavi...taSnapShot.pdf

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