All hip scores in UK are automatically added to the BVA list, according to the 2001-2008 completed list not a single Yorkie or Chihuhua had been hip scored.

I can`t get the BVA Elbow results to load on my browser so I don`t know if any have been tested or not but if anyone else can get it to load properly it`s here

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/document...ia_In_Dogs.pdf

Have`nt found Patella test results for either breed yet, the English Toy Terrier Club [ Black and Tan ] have results up so some do publish them but just have`nt found any done Chi`s and Yorkies yet, [ does`nt mean there are`nt any of course, just have`nt found any so far ].

Genuine question. If elbow/hip testing is essentially useless when breeding cross breeds is there any justification to breeding crosses then? (I understand not all breeds need these tests, just asking as a general question really).

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A somewhat extreme reaction don`t you think ? What part of `its the breeders not the dogs themselves which are the issue` don`t you [ want to ] understand ?

Which part don`t you get that those of us who oppose deliberate crossbreeding and do have [ rescued ] crossbreeds ourselves should make it more than clear that it`s not the dogs themselves we are opposing, it`s the unethical breeders churning them out that we abhor ?

Of course it is not the dogs themselves and we don't want to go down that old route again. "I don't know why people are so against cross breeds because I love my dogs" etc. etc.

The fact is that people are churning out crossbreeds for fashion and because it is easy to do. Any Tom, Dick or Harry off the street breeds his pet quality "pedigree" dog to another and rakes in the cash from a gullible public who are just so happy with their "designer" dog.

These "breeders" have no idea of the genetics behind their dog, no idea of the diseases it may carry and frankly they don't really care either.
As long as it doesn't have three legs which would mean less money, as long as it can walk out the door and they receive as much money as possible then that is enough.

We keep hearing about health concious cross breeders but the majority hardly know what hip dysplasia is, without doing the testing for it.

In this economic climate, with people having to give up their dogs due to financial problems I think it is madness to be breeding any litters for the "commercial" pet market, when nice friendly pet dogs get put down every day.

I think the OP should concentrate on rescue dogs and puppies. I am sure there will be a lovely little dog just waiting in a kennel somewhere for someone to love.

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Lauren

Don't Shop Adopt! - Stop Puppy Farming

Battery Farmed Dogs Campaign (Puppy Farming)

I don`t believe there is a justification for commercially breeding them, no.
By commercial I mean people breeding them to sell to the `pet market`.
The only cases for justification imo are:

1] in the cases of breeds on the at risk list for which outcrossing is the difference between saving a breed or it becoming extinct, however that should only ever be done under the strictest guidelines by experts in Breed genetics, and with the knowledge that they should be prepared in advance to secure home`s for the progeny which are not suitable for the restoration breeding program.
Even then, I personally believe that in the cases where the general health of a breed is a serious issue it would be better to let those breeds fade away rather than try to outcross knowing many of the progeny statistically is highly likely to be born with the [ skeletal ] health issues the outcrossing would be done for to eventually dilute then correct, too many pups would suffer the consequences of lack of dilution in the first two to three generations at least for it to be ethical so on welfare grounds I don`t believe it`s justifiable in those cases.

2] Guide Dogs For The Blind have their own breeding program in which they cross Labs and Retrievers, they use a total of 50 pure-bred studs and 200 pure-bred bitches. Their reason is for temperament, both breeds are so alike that they are physically and mentally complimentary, all are fully health tested and medically monitored throughout life, and all resulting pups are neutered as it was found temperament problems increased significantly in F2s. [ Which is why Hearing Dogs For The Deaf have reportedly stopped accepting donations of F2 Lab x Poodles due to such unsound and unsuitable temperament problems ].

None which turn out unsuitable to work or which hit retirement age are homed by anyone other than the Association and are homed `in house`, they take full life time responsibility therefore are not adding to the rescue problem.

The world wide Guide Dog associations have been doing this for sometime and are experts in what they do, they are producing dogs for a specific necessary working purpose for which there are simply not enough suitable dogs of either breed to fill the supply and demand needs - most of the dogs they breed are purebreds however, the LabxRetriever crosses are a percentage out of necessity to try to fulfill the numbers of suitable dogs for the highly specialised job involved.

Their breeding program general info is here
[ Word Doc ]
http://www.guidedogs.org.uk/fileadmi...s_Breeding.doc

Those are the only cases [ imo ] in which there can be any legitimate justification and in case one it`s with stipulations on the welfare side for breeds where I don`t believe the end justifies the means.

Just my views anyway fwiw

Thanks for that! I just wondered as the main thing behind x breeding is if you do all the health tests (and all the other stuff that goes with breeding pups) then it's ok.

So if you're not outcrossing or breeding for guide dogs and the health tests are virtually worthless then there really is no excuse for it.

I think. God what a topic to be thinking about at this time in the morning

Now I thought if you did all the health tests then it was ok but obviously I stand corrected.

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Excellent post, have reppied you

I appreciate you reading the post, hopefully I have finally got something across well, [ I`m not a master of the written word ].

Its the health testing thing that the people claiming it legitimises them are fooling the public and often themselves with, on the skeletal side of things alone it`s the differences in builds which knock all skeletal testing out the window as the pups are not of the same build as either parent, there is such a vast range of build differences which any pup could end up with that there is no possible predictability of potential health or otherwise.
Think of building a car - put a Volvo Estates chassis and a Skoda Estates suspension system in the planned build, [ think of them as the spine and hips if you will ], they just aint gonna work together properly, maybe not the best possible analogy I expect but the best I can come up with at this time of night without a caffeine infusion

Also, the breeders who deliberately crossbreed are not using suitable breeding stock in the first place in terms of the dogs being proven in standard and good enough construction, no ethical breeder with a good quality dog allows them to be used for crossing, only ever to further their own breed, ergo the dogs not of good enough breed quality to be bred from to equal or further their within their own breed are being used for crossing instead so they can still bring in money.

I have`nt yet known an ethical breeder of purebreds who would`nt back that statement up - the ethical breeders I know get inundated with requests to use their dogs at stud or offers of studs to their bitch from crossbreeders, they all tell them politely [ and some not so politely ] where to go

what part of not all breeders of cross breeds are unethical??? why is it different for some one who health tests and has very good results does thier own research into each breed e.t.c but because thier pups will be classed as a cross breed they are worth anymore then £50 why are they only worth £50 but someone who doesnt bother to health test thier kc reg dog doesnt really care thats shes only 15months old e.t.c why are they worth £400+??

I do under stand hence why i said ANYONE whos breeding at the moment with the correct health tests, waiting lists e.t.c not just cross breeders

dont get me wrong personally i wouldnt pay stupid money for a cross breed, or a dog with a silly name

People just jump as soon as they see these silly name about how wrong they are e.t.c no health testing etc when they have no clue unless the speak to the breeder if they have been or not! Theres an amazing amount of Labs e.t.c here with no health tests, but they are kc reg and £650!!! but there is a litter of springer spaniels x cockers that have been health tested and they are £350-£400

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Owner to-
lots of rodents
2 monster dogs
1 slinky cat

i think your argument misses the point entirely and it is plain offensive...you did not pass any point across with any firm logic behind it...
if your terms of reference is the predictability, think again...the predictability you mentioned comes from the breeds guidelines as an ideal...and variability around that "ideal" is quite high....everybody will tell you that after having own dogs of the same breeds that no two dogs were the same except for one or two attitudes (i.e. fetch, sniff around or point).
re health: have a look at the literature in the first few posts of this thread...and i can inundate you with further peer reviewed scientific papers...
A provocative cry for the truth

and when you breed to the standards that I and some other colleagues of mine do (crossbreeds that is)...then you might probably have a point of offending the way you do, otherwise it's just plain ignorance and misconception! - aaaah and our ethics do not include SELLING of the pups...but we ask for a voluntary contribution because we the vet's bills and the tests are carried out at university lab rather than with the barracudas affiliated to the KC and they cost us a pretty penny.

i don't want to come to the point of arguing with a wall... but those statements are BANG OUT OF ORDER!