sooooo am I to understand that everytime someone comes on here and announces, hey I'm new, I have a xyellow dog and I am going to mate her with my mates xblue dog because I heard x breeds are better and I know a few people that have said green dogs are cool, what are we going to advice? are we going to say way to go new breeder because we all know hybrid vigor is the way to go, chances are they wont carry such a such a gene that causes disabilities because they are x's, even if thos dogs did in fact come somewhere in their "pedigree" from dogs that are effected? it seems to me that there are quite a few on here that do in fact promote this type of breeding, if someone asks the question have you done health tests on the dogs a dispute starts, and the questioner is asked by some, why the questioner feels they have the right to ask such a personal question, when I feel we should ALL be asking this question no matter what the breed.

mo

Agreed moby

I think that question is only fair to ask for anyoen coming on for breeding advice. It goes hand in hand with:

how old is the bitch
how many litters has she had
have you any experience in breeding or someone on hand who can help you
does she or the dog have any medical problems
what breed is the dam and stud
is she up to dave vaccination/worming and what type usedetc

etc etc etc

they are all relevant questions and will determine the type and detail of the answer to be given. Advising someone means you need a bigger picture. Giving out what would be good advice for most breeds could be dangerous in brachyocephallic breeds, likewise a bitch with bad hips and pelvic trouble could have more problems whelping a litter than a bitch who doesnt. The health tests question is simply firstmost and foremost about the best interests of the dogs. For someone considering a mating, advising them about the health tests is essential.

Maybe there could be a questionnair for every new poster to fill in on their first couple of posts which would give people a good understanding of their dogs, their plans and their aims.

just a thought.

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Mo, for the most part, I believe, most on this board want everyone out there to be "good breeders".

What the disagreement is on, is about what good breeding practices are.

I know, just reading your last sentence, "IMO if just one person is pursuaded not to breed because of not health testing/breeding a pet/x breeding for the sake of x breeding then I feel its a good thing." and having read posts of yours before where you don't believe in ANY crossbreeding (am I wrong), you seem to lump those who crossbreed in the same pile as those who don't carefully breed and test.

Sometimes those who crossbreed DO know lines, do research, and carefully health test before they breed, and, I find, that seems to be where most "fallouts" happen in discussions - over the idea of crossbreeding. Sometimes it happens when those who are about to offer advice ask loaded questions like "is the dam/sire exemplary for their breed"?

LOADED questions are a HUGE problem, and from what I've read, cause a bunch of fallout.

But in regards to the general idea that I take from your original post, that we need to actively discourage breeding as much as possible, that I do not agree on. I believe in ENCOURAGING breeding - but of course breeding with knowledge and breeding with care.

Not all of us live where there is a dog overpopulation problem.

In my own province, which is the size of Texas, our two large cities of one million people, do not kill healthy and adoptable . . . in fact we import small dogs in as there is a demand for them.

In the City of Calgary, in 2008, not even 1200 dogs came available for adoption through the Calgary pound, and the Humane Society. 9800 dogs were needed just to replace those that died of old age in the city that year.

In the City of Edmonton, in 2008, 2312 dogs came available for adoption through the Edmonton pound and the Humane Society. As well approx. 9800 dogs were needed just to replace those in the city that died of old age that year.

The difference is 16,088 dogs, that have to come from somewhere.

That is a severe pet "underpopulation". Right now the puppymills are the ones benefitting (and I speak for a "retired" mill momma foster I had with me 5 years ago) and profitting. We need well bred dogs and breeders willing to do that work and I personally do not care if those dogs are crossed or pure. I do want the moms to be cared for and loved, and the pups to be socialized, which is a far cry from what the commercial breeders are doing.

ETA:

Posters usually say they want to be open minded. If so they should be willing to read information contrary to their own beliefs, not necessarily to agree with it, but to at least consider it.

I would suggest these links.

Numbers Test Conventional Wisdom on "Pet Overpopulation" - by Merritt Clifton: http://www.ncraoa.com/articles/canin...le_Dec2006.pdf

Killing for a Myth: http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2...-for-myth.html

Only Five Percent: http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2...e-percent.html

Pet Underpopulation: The Pet Shortage in the US - by Loretta Baughan: http://www.spanieljournal.com/33lbaughan.html

"As dog owners, I think we are deeply disturbed over the plight of animals in shelters and the
high rate of euthanasia. There is a solution. Nathan Winograd has proven his “No Kill
Revolution” method works-in both large and small shelters. As dog breeders and trainers, we
are the experts, so it is up to us to step forward and assist our local shelters in overcoming their
problems. The first step is to stop blaming pet breeders and lay to rest, once and for all, the
myth of “pet overpopulation.”

There are many, many, more similar links at this Florida Pet Law site, if anyone is interested. http://www.floridaanimallaws.org/msn.htm

i would say, what i always say:

make sure the dogs are healthy, that thy are not relatives so the pups won't be inbred and suffer and you have the room and the means to take care of the pups if their are not placed or return back, put on the side at least 2grands for vet expenses, and another 500 - 1500 £ depending on size for supplies, medicines and other expenses because it is very easy that things don't go according to plans and even a light knock in the wrong place can cause seriusos damages and miscarriages/ emergency vet...etc and you don;t want to loose your pooch or come to the point of having to make a difficult decision just to satisfy your whim to breed from your wonderful dog...

it usually works (and if it doesn;t, well tough!) and in a few occasions people have contacted me saying that they have changed their mind and thanked me for the advice


in one very odd occasion, one gentleman called me back saying that he went through with the mating, had to do c-sec and could not place and take care of one pup...
guess what i did?

it usually works (and if it doesn;t, well tough!) dont know how to respond to that ? tough on who? the dog?

Mo

sometimes yes.... well for me

Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

I could not and would not help a novice BYB with the mating/whelping/rearing of their dogs and pups

My concern there is that when they have got through this first breeding, and had all of our support, they decide it wasnt too bad and go ahead and do it again. So our one time of offering help and support, we condem the bitch to a repeat mating, and her daughter, and her daughter and so on and so on and so on. We also condem all of the future pups, who are homed with little regard for welfare and future breeding.


I wont be popular for saying it but sometimes i would rather they had a horrible delivery, with terrible outcome, and decided never to breed again.

IMO as horrible as it is, i would rather sacrifice one bitch and her pups, to save another hundred bitches and their pups.

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well, Mo, i am afraid to state that: one can tell people the reality they are facing, it is their responsibility to make a decision, patronising is not the answer as is au par with breeching in their freedom of choice!
of course it's tough on the dog... but ultimately it's their dog, and they are responsible for it...

I think with the best will in the world bitches do die in pregnancy, whelping or immediately afterwards and thus I am uncertain how the idea of "I love my pet soooo much I just want her to have one litter" fits into that equation.

I think dog underpopulation is not something we suffer from in the UK, Comfortcreature, unfortunately it is quite the opposite. No-one needs ENCOURAGING here.

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Lauren

Don't Shop Adopt! - Stop Puppy Farming

Battery Farmed Dogs Campaign (Puppy Farming)

Do you know Lauren, or do you just think? I know I've never been content being told something, unless I could verify that information myself.

You are totally correct that the UK is not the USA or Canada though, and that the cultures are different.

I've asked for numbers from the UK in regards to this, and only Johnderondon was forthcoming.

The Cold Wet Nose blog posted this:

"There's definitely a problem on several levels. There's an over production problem with 100,000 dogs in rescue kennels each year and 10,000 unwanted dogs put to sleep each year."

. . . and apparently the APGAW report talks about 8 million dogs in "this country". I don't know if that is just Britain, or if it includes the UK.

To compare, in the USA, shelters see approx. 8 million animals a year (a high estimate) and approx. 3 - 4 million would be dogs. The estimated USA canine population is 60-70 million.

My math says 1.25% of owned UK dogs enter rescue kennels each year, and to compare, approx. 5.4% of owned American dogs enter rescue kennels each year.

Yet in the USA, Nathan Winograd has run the numbers and has shown that pet overpopulation is NOT the problem.

My maths could easily not be right as UK estimates seem to be, so far, so rough, and there is a greyhound industry that seems to run unchecked.

I really think it is important, in order to tackle the problem in the UK, for there to be at least an idea of what percentage of households need to adopt from shelters in order to diminish shelter killings.

Why are there not people looking into this in the UK? Why are people ready to accept ideas spoonfed to them without any numerical basis?

We were inundated here with the highly propogated, agendized, false idea of pet overpopulation being the cause of shelter killing for years, when it was not, (and it is not).

Shelter policies and leadership are the larger problem. Animal controls that don't even offer owner turn ins for adoption - automatic euthanasia because they don't want to deal with the public. Animal controls that kill when there are empty cages just "in case" they get too many in tomorrow.

Redemption - Nathan Winograd Explodes The Myth Of Pet Overpopulation & Sparks A Revolution: Dog Politics: Redemption - Nathan Winograd Explodes The Myth Of Pet Overpopulation & Sparks A Revolution

maybe if you came and lived round here where there is an overpopulation of dogs your view may be sligtly different?, and I actually see the result of unscrouplous breeding each and everyday at work, I work at a no kill shelter(we only PTS seriously agressive dogs) where kind people, who will breed their pet sally only to give the pups to us like they are doing us a faviour. I am not a great lover of people breeding their pets wether x breeds or pedigree, if they have no concern about health test on those dogs, I may have seemed to be all against breeding from x breeds but that is purely because IMO and my personal experience of people breeding from these x's do not do it out of a great interest in hybrid vigor, not because they beleive they are breeding wonderfully healthy dogs, its because they are too bloody lazy or ignorant to avoid their bitch getting pregnant, or their male running about impregnating any in season bitch it can get at. so my view may be tainted, because I am neck deep in the results of these type ofbreeding every day of the week.



Mo

edited to add, I have just read you last post about shelters, the one I work at put all dogs up for rehoming, we take in surrendered dogs, we take in dogs found by the wardens, we take in abandoned dogs, all are given a chance.