Hypothetically speaking as well here.

Uh uh.

Should breeders be careful about their pairings and caring about what they do. Should they place carefully and take dogs they've bred back. Absolutely.

Should they be told to shoulder the burden of dogs being put to sleep every day . . . not a chance. These do not correlate.

Promoting the idea that they do, I think, is wrong. It puts blame where it does not belong and the real source of the killing problem is then not addressed.

MANY, MANY dogs are NOT given a chance to be rescued once they are put in 'shelter'. So called shelters are OFTEN killing places, set up to kill and not adopt out dogs. In the USA that often means 80% are killed without any attempt, ever, by anybody, to adopt them out. Some of those places are closed to the public for adoptions. That problem cannot be resolved by promoting the idea that the fate of produced pups is all on the back of the breeders.

It is not. That problem has to be addressed at the shelter management level.

YesBiscuit!

- Terrierman's Daily Dose - - How Did Dog Shelters Become Slaughter Houses?

There is NOT a pet overpopulation problem. THAT has been DEBUNKED in every which way. Our communities have enough homes to absord 4 or 5 times the number of dogs that enter shelters each year. Debunking Pet Overpopulation : Nathan J Winograd

In many places there is a SHELTER overpopulation problem. THAT can most often be resolved by better shelter management, and that includes an effort by those that get gov't and donated funds to run shelters (RSPCA - $$$$$ misspent possibly) to offer lo-cost spay/neuter programs and to have educational programs to try to change the communities perception of what responsible pet ownership is.

I live where that has been done and we have been running no-kill percentages, for dogs, for almost a decade. Two cities of one million people each. Many places in North America have achieved this.

Of course if you are one that expects known biting dogs and every 14 year old dog that needs $300 plus worth of meds a month to be found a home, then you might be disappointed that our societies will most likely never be in a situation to find homes for EVERY dog.

On another note, if I am the kind to sweet talk breeders and buy a pup, and then 8 months later dump it, and then repeat that cycle 10 times by lying and conniving, that is NOT on the breeders. THAT is on the conniving buyer who just wants what they want and insists, later, on dumping the pup.

I have a step-niece that did this for 5 pups - and made sure they didn't go back even though a couple had signed contracts that she would have to do so. She knew that word would get out if she did, so she dumped them at a shelter. Plain as that. The last two we took on and found homes for as we couldn't see it continue any longer.

It took her 7 years to grow out of that phase.

THAT type of irresponsibility is NOT the fault of breeders. What these types do should not be placed at the feet of breeders.

Every time someone relates the idea that the cause of dogs being put to sleep is their birth, and therefore their breeders, they are doing a disservice to the many dogs that are killed each day (the majority) for a myriad of reasons that the breeders had no contribution to. This dismisses the very important FACT that most times very little effort has been made to keep or save them by those that have come in contact with in times between their birth and their death.

Not recognizing THAT is why we continue this vicious cycle and continue to kill.

Quote:

The Marion dog pound has reached its maximum capacity, and soon animals will have to be put down if they do not get adopted. “Our main kennels number is 20, and we started this morning at 23,” Marion County Deputy Ryan Zempter said. The Marion County Dog Pound is trying new approaches to get adoption numbers up. The dog pound has created its own Facebook page. [...] The Marion dog pound can only speculate, and hope for a change. “I guess just keep our fingers crossed and hope we can get some out the door before the next one comes in,” [Marion County Deputy Ryan] Zempter said. Cross our fingers and hope for a change? Jiminy H. Criminy! We started a Facebook page but we have 3 dogs too many so we’re going to have to start killing. Because obviously we couldn’t ask a dog to share a space with another dog in order to save his life. We couldn’t have offsite adoption events on weekends or offer a Valentine’s Day adoption promotion. Because Facebook page! I’m not seeing the forcing. When does the forcing start?

Dear Dog Pounds, It’s Not ‘Euthanasia’ and You Aren’t Being ‘Forced’ to Do It « YesBiscuit!

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A map showing the locations of communities saving at least 90% of the homeless pets entering their shelters



http://cruelcrazybeautifulworld.com/...l-communities/

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I don't think I said they should shoulder the burden. That doesn't take away from the fact that if you are going to bring another living creature into this world then IMO you should be able to morally justify your decision to do so.


I wasn't really commenting on why so many dogs are in rescue or put to sleep as I do not have the enough information about it.

This in an interesting thought, I have not heard it before. I shall take a look at the links.

I'm also not suggesting that if all breeders were "perfect" that no animal would end up in rescue. Even breeders with the best of intentions can make mistakes or be fooled. I am also not suggesting that "buyers" do not also have a responsibility to home ethically as well. I am sure there are many elements which lead to so many dogs in rescue.

I stand by the point though. Ethical breeding, even if there was no rescue crisis, is IMO a must.

I recognize that. That's why I started my original reply with this - "Should breeders be careful about their pairings and caring about what they do. Should they place carefully and take dogs they've bred back. Absolutely."

This sentence, ". . .With so many dogs being put to sleep every day, I think every litter produced has to be ethically justified. . ." leads the reader to believe the produced litter is a main causative factor.

You might call it nitpicky of me. I think the subject is too important to let that slide. Too often it HAS been let slide and now AR have used the anti-breeder message to create laws in places where ALL breeding of any dog is outlawed, where a yearly inspection fee of $250 is charged to every person who sells even a single pup, where keeping an intact dog costs $100 yearly, and where they can seize and kill your dog if he is a mixbreed and intact and over 6 months of age. These are REAL examples of laws faced in North American communities.

Thank you.

Absolutely. Framing any topic with 'ethical', however, brings in its own quandry. We all have a different take.

Of course I believe we are both fully on the side of dogs and probably in great agreement about a lot, which is a great place to start. Sometimes the 'little things' need discussion, however, to understand where each is coming from a little better.

I've been googling about, and in regards to rescue in the UK I believe these links might be interesting. Keep in mind there are over 6 million dogs owned in the UK. Owners are looking to find over 600,000 new dogs each year just by calculating attrition alone.

"A key reason for euthanasia is that the dog is a type banned in the U.K."

http://www.toledoblade.com/news/2011...al-care-2.html

He says: "Last year we reunited over 2,000 dogs to members of the public, those dogs which came in as strays. We re-homed 3,000 dogs, just over. But, sadly, over 2,800 dogs were put to sleep."

That's around a third of the total number of dogs Battersea Dogs & Cats Home took in last year.

Of the 2,815 that were put down, 1,931 of them were healthy but were judged to be too much of a risk to be offered to the public for re-homing because of their temperament or behaviour.

By far the biggest single group of dogs coming into Battersea Dogs & Cats Home are bull breeds and bull breed crosses – many of them Staffordshire Bull Terrier types known as "Staffies". They account for more than half of the home's longer term residents.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pre...panorama.shtml

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The sentence "I think every litter produced has to be ethically justified" does not have to be linked to rescues. Even if there were no dogs in rescue I would still believe that each litter needs to be justified. Mentioning that do many dogs are put to sleep each day was just to reinforce that point.

You're right though, it does imply some causative factor and I guess this is because I do feel that BYB are in part to blame for so many dogs being dumped. Not the only reason by any means, but I can't believe it helps the situation. So I suppose that feeling unconsciously seeped out in my sentence even though it wasn't what I was intending to say

I think it's an important subject too and am pleased to posted all the links The more information I have the better

Talk of ethical breeders, and how cross breeding should be accepted all you like.. But lets not forget those that know the two mentioned breeds, know just what a nightmare of a dog potential puppies can be..owners and dogs suffer, because a breeder has bred for money, there is NO excuses...end of really...anyone that can even begin to argue the point when the said cross is nine times out of ten deformed, with health and tempermant issues has a screw lose.

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