A dog with a score higher than 0/0 has a degree of HD - and some 0/0 hip dogs move very stiffly.

For every one he picked out, how many did he miss? such an experiment can only work if you test the dogs you don't believe to have a degree of HD as well as the dogs that do.

A friends dog came to stay with me for quite a long period after she was rushed into hospital - as soon as I saw this dog in action, I knew something was wrong - to me, he displayed all the symptoms described in pups with severe HD.

His hips were fine, he had OCD of the hock; he was operated on successfully when he hit 12 months - but I would have put money on his hips being the problem and so did the vets and the specialist until they started investigating.

HD can be, and often is asymptomatic - there are owners out there of many dogs blissfully oblivious to the fact their dogs have poor hips - and such dogs often live to a ripe old age without any major problems - exercised regularly and sporting good muscle, these dogs should stay as healthy as their good hip peers - also - an increasing number of pet owners give their dogs supplements as they get older - again, masking potential problems, and so long as the dog is pain free, good luck to them.

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My girl has moderate HD - comments such as "looks like she could go all day" and "moved well" were frequently seen in her critiques - she was knocking on the door for her stud book number and only a few points off gaining her Show Certificate of Merit - but I know there are dogs out there with similar and higher scores who have done much better - it's difficult to mask bad movement as it is - and you don't get put up under that many different judges if there is a visible problem.

As it happens, my girl went on to damage her knee pretty much ending her show career - a real shame as she was born to show; was there a correlation between her hips and knees? if there was, it's never been highlighted by the vet, orthopod or physio - but knowing how it works in humans, I don't think it's beyond the bounds of possibility

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In theory I can see where you are coming from, and I openly acknnowledge that was another concern with my girl.

OTOH, why would there be a problem if the bitch is fit and well muscled? Don't forget, we are talking averages and sometimes I think it's easy to forget this.

The current breed average for Clumber Spaniels is 35 (that has dropped considerably in recent years)

• The Breed average for the Black Russian Terrier is 36
• The Bulldog is 42
• The New Foundland is 26
• The Otterhound is 33 (the rolling 5 year breed average is 48)

The average for the breed is solely for THAT breed; it's important to look at the bigger picture - no-one wants to push a breed average up - but actually - if Mals follow a similar pattern to Labs - then the occasional outstanding dog from excellent lines is not going to have a major impact on the overall average - historical records prove that actually, these occasional high scoring dogs have not far off 100% probability of producing progeny with scores lower than theirs.

That's not advocating that everyone should be breeding regardless of hipscores, but it does prove that you absolutely MUST look at the whole picture and also probably it should be left to those with many years experience in the breed who know their lines inside out.

I've seen one dog with high scores used at VERY limited stud - and every single progeny hipscores (and all came back below the breed average_

Our database clearly shows certain lines as being hip improvers -(but even within that you get the occasional surprise result)

You can't breed solely from those lines, because you would ultimately compromise elsewhere not to mention the impact on the gene pool - particularly if another condition came out to bite you on the bum in 5/10 year time.

In any breed it's important to maintain as broad a genetic diversity as possible; that's a position luvmydogs finds themself in at the moment - I don't envy their predicament; in one way it must be nice to play a pivotal role in shaping the future of a new breed in a country, but in the same breath - the position they now find themselves in is a tough one; although if I have understood things correctly, the condition is not on a par with many other canine conditions - so there is scope for an element of flexibility - sometimes however, you are damned if you do and dmaned if you don't.

Breeding decisions will never be clear cut, and I think if they always are, then we are missing something.

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My point was though that he was picking out dogs by movement, xraying them to confirm and then operating - and each dog actually improved the way it moved and its level of activity in spite of the owners being unaware of the problem. One has to assume that most of these dogs were suffering up to a point and would probably have got worse or there would have been no difference after the op.
and he was only doing it for his own interest so he did not xray random dogs.
It would be interesting to do that though.

I was also interested to know if anyone else had heard of the pectineal operation.
I know that if I had a young dog with HD I would insist on it being done as it can do no harm, there is no recovery time and it is not expensive.

There are some farmers who have sold dogs on because of stiff movement - even though the dog has great hip scores. They say the dogs cannot turn as quickly as a dog with looser hips.


If a dog is asymptomatic and working perfectly in the field, why eliminate them from breeding stock?

It terrifies me most of the time lol. It is a big responsibility.

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Breed for a useful dog and you often get a beautiful, useful dog... breed only for a beautiful dog and you are on your own in the useful department.

To the original topic, I can't see what benefit that cross could have?

To the health test/genetic diversity discussion.

I first thought having a carrier bitch was the most upsetting thing possible, I thought oh well that's the good hips and clear eye cert out the window I was in tears. But after talking with knowledgeable breeders on here and within my breed I found that having a carrier was not a bad thing, you just had to be more careful.

I don't think any breed should cut out carriers, or dogs with slightly above average hips. I know within my breed there are some stud dogs that have been used quite often and if we were to cut all the non perfect dogs out then most of the breed would be gone and we would be left with alot of closely related dogs.

I think as long as you know what you are doing or have mentors who have experience with it there's no real need to cut out a dog with 1/2 points over average hips or who is a carrier.

I know the thread was on about elbows but I have little experience with elbow scores.

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Sorry to drag up an old post, and I'm sure being a newbie, you would expect me to introduce myself elsewhere but I stumbled upon this forum whilst doing a google search for a Leondoodle, or should it be a Pooberger?!

Now firstly, I'm not a breeder and for me a dog is for one reason only and that is to be a family pet, after all, this is the Pet Forums isn't it?
I know when there were talks of a couple of litters of Leonberger x Standard Poodles about, that many people within the Leonberger community were up in arms about their precious breed. Not so much in the Poodle community mind!

But why are so many Leonberger owners so against crossing within their breed? After all, Leonbergers were a bit of a 'mongrel' in the first place with a bit of a St Bernard, a bit of a Newfie and a Pyrennian thrown in the mix a bit later to add some colour! I'm sure if we had internet forums 160 years ago, then the Newfoundland community would have been up in arms at the thought of their beloved dogs been cross bred with some whisky barrel carrying bear!

When I stumbled across this on a search, I was quite astonished to read many people replies on this subject in such a negative way.
yes, I hear what you are saying about hip scores, elbow scores etc etc, but are too many people that tied up in numbers that they are actually losing sight of what is the best part of owning a dog is all about?

For the record, my wife and I have 3 dogs.
Firstly a little beagle....Mad as a hatter, love her to bits. Her name is Molly and she's just over 2!
Secondly, we have a beautiful 6 year old Leonberger. Excellet pedigree (grandfather on the cover of the Leonberger book) and she is my soul mate. I have no interest in showing her and I never have done. She was never bought to show and I do feel that too many dog owners do miss out on so much of a dogs life by carting them around to shows week after week.
For me, I'd rather be out and about on a walk over the fields and up the hills and down again. Luckily, we live in the country and we have all this on our doorstep, and I don't ever have to worry about hips and elbow score and whether she is standing correctly with her head held high and performing for the judges. That may be for others, and each to their own, but my Leo is happiest when she's bounding through the woods after squirrels, or running through our stream chasing ducks and then plopping her self down smack in the middle of the deepest part, then getting out and showering me in the process!
You can keep all your rosettes and trophy's and lifetime supply of pedigree chum, I have the biggest prize and that's when she greets me in the only way a leo can when I walk through the door in the morning or when I get home from work!

...and now on to our third dog...yes, we have a Leondoodle.
It was a cross breed which was never meant to happen and the lady we got her off admitted that the mating was purely accidental as her moms Leo was a rescue dog which they were of the understanding had been neutered. Evidently, this wasn't the case.
Yes, everyone can all be up in arms about it, but it happened. One of 2 recent litters of Leondoodles (or Poobergers as we like to affectionately call ours!).
Crass as some may see it, I have no interest in the hip scores of the parents. The dog has been born already and we cannot change that. All the dog needs is a good loving home and that is something which we can give her, so we had one from the litter from Shropshire. Our 'Flo' (Florence/Flo-Jo) is now 11 weeks old and I wouldn't swap her for anything. She has oodles of character and very reminiscent of how Roxy was when we first had her 6 years ago.

We have no idea of what she will look like at 18 months, only time will tell.
We have no idea if she will moult or not, and to be honest, I don't really care! The Dyson comes out daily anyway so nothing will change there!

First and foremost, she is a pet and she will be loved and given the best life she could ever hope for. She doesn't ever have to worry about being bundled in to the back of a car every other weekend to be shown and criticised by others at dog shows up and down the country, instead she has long walks in the woods and swims in the stream to look forward to.
After all, that's what owning a pet is supposed to be about isn't it.

If people are genuinely interested, then I will post up pictures on a regular basis of Flo growing up so people can see how she develops and looks, but if any derogatory or nasty posts are made at any point, then I will simply delete and move on.
Too many people spend too much time bickering on internet forums and criticising others and get tied up too much that they actually miss out on so much in life. You're only here once, just enjoy it! 3-5 mile daily walks with my 'girls' in the country come rain or shine is one of life's luxuries for me.

a gratuitous pic of my girls....

Flo aged 11 weeks. Our Beagle Molly has met her match but little does she realise just how big she will grow!!



and a couple of our 'normal' Leo!!

You have some lovely looking dogs there, and I appreciate your points re the development of the Leonberger.

However, I don't think the show folk will appreciate your impression of the life of a show dog. I can't speak for longer-haired dogs but I know that the majority of show dogs also enjoy normal "dog lives".

Regarding hip and elbow scores - they aren't seen as a badge of achievement, rather an indication of the breed's and dog's health. As your young pup was the outcome of an accidental mating I don't think I'm wrong in assuming that her parents weren't scored. With this in mind, and the fact that she potentially may grow to be a large adult, I would be very careful in the amount of exercise she gets - 3 to 5 miles daily is far too much for such a young dog (apologies if you are already aware of this).

As I said above, your girls are stunning, particularly your Leo. It's a breed that I've earmarked for the future, hopefully. Please keep posting photos of your young cross - it'll be interesting to see how she develops.

By the way, "Pooberger"? Sounds delicious .

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I love your dogs and I too wouldn't want a dog for show, much preferring the home life with my guys and the walks we share together. Then again I have never been part of a showing community so I really can't speak from experience as to whether the dogs enjoy it or not, I know many are so used to it that it's a part of normal life for them. I know of many show Malamutes who are also worked and therefore lead a very normal life with a little bit of stardom thrown in, plus the occasional zest of a love life - reckon they thinks that's a pretty cool existence.

However I wouldn't be quite so flippant about hip scores if I were you. Obviously your Leo girl has come from pretty good stock and I would imagine all of her ancestors have had all the relevant health checks, so it's a pretty safe bet that she won't have any hip or other health problems the breed may have.
Your 'Pooberger' on the other hand may not be so fortunate - hopefully she will be lucky and escape any hip problems that either breed may throw her but I can tell you should she be unlucky enough to develop HD it's not a bed of roses, not for you and definitely not the dog. If both parents are health tested and have good scores for their breed (of no interest to you I know) then she may be okay but as she has been mixed it's not as clear cut as one may think it may be.

So from someone who knows just what it's like to see a dog of 18 months old struggle to even walk for ten mins, then go through two total hip replacements before the age of three years, dislocating one along the way and having two major 2 1/2 hour ops in the course of eight days, I can only shudder at the thought of anyone being so misguided as to say they 'don't care' about hip scores.

My boy may look fine now and admitted he has a normal life with no restriction but I watched him go to hell and back at times during his recovery after the second op. No dog should have to go through such trauma and if everyone 'didn't care' about hip scores many many more would and those without insurance lead a short but painful life or even be euthanized.

For the sake of your new little girl lets just hope you don't end up eating your words eh?

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Flynn - Kali - Britches - Bruce - T-Bo - Marty



"For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

Don't worry, the littlun' doesn't come with me on the big walks. We've only just had her and are treating her growth/fitness development as that of a Leo.

Sorry if came across a bit flippant but my point being is that too much emphasis is put on a perfect score. Both the parents of our Pooberger are from good stock, but how that pans out in the crossing of the breed, know one as yet knows and only time will tell.
Whatever happens, she is in good hands and will be given all the love and attention she needs.