I've actually had people slate me for breeding from Tau, because Indie's elbow grade is 2:1, yet look at all those who don't bother to elbow grade, or who do, and breed anyway, despite results. I really worry about this health testing route we seem to be going down, knowing a status is great, understanding where to go from there is a whole different thing. There are too many people wanting 100% clear tick box approach, which is easily achievable now, but what about ten or fifteen years down the road, when we've got double the amount of tests available? And some of those conditions will be more likely, should they develop, to affect quality of life, such as epilepsy, and cancer, yet we've discarded umpteen otherwise healthy dogs from a gene pool, just because of a genetic status.

This is exactly the dilemma I've been having. I posted about it here: Mdr1

__________________
Check out my English Shepherds
http://www.edenvillage.co.uk

Breed for a useful dog and you often get a beautiful, useful dog... breed only for a beautiful dog and you are on your own in the useful department.

I did read it but haven't commented, as I think most of what's been said in various posts I'd agreed with from the experienced breeders, but it really is worrying to me if we're having this sort of dilemma now, with a tiny handful of tests available to us, and if we feel we're pressued into breeding 100% genetic status clear of anything dogs, as a priority over other considerations.

What has Indie's elbow grade got to do with breeding Tau? Sorry I'm confused lol. Are they related?? I wouldn't breed from a dog with an elbow grade of 2 in immediate family either.

They are half sisters, different sires - even with a gene pool as supposedly large as Labradors, you're cutting out an awful lot of healthy animals if you don't breed from dogs that have relatives that have higher elbow grades, or hip scores than the *ideal*.

I'm only talking from experience of my breed of course, but almost all the dogs I've looked at from breeders I know have elbow grades of 0 with the occasional 0/1 or 1/1. I've actually never seen a breeder use a dog with an elbow score of 2. Apart from the English lines breeders. One of a very well used studs has a grade of 3. Disgusting

In your situation I would be looking at the other siblings on mother's side and what sire has produced before jumping in saying no. If you have enough reason to believe the sire is increasing grades - I'm assuming you've done this and that's why you're happy breeding? If they are only half siblings without themselves having done the research into your lines they've no right to say that really have they

And what about all the ungraded siblings and relatives? Your argument would work, if all the relations were graded, unfortunately they're not, so you can only really look at a tiny proportion of the picture, and of course, the dogs in front of you.

And yes, I've looked back through all the health test results available throughout both pedigrees, back to at least the fifth generation, and have come across absolutely nothing to convince me there are any problems within either lines, and in truth, I'm not even convinced Indie's elbow results are a accurate reflection of her true grade, given that the vet mucked up one set of plates that were rejected by the BVA, almost unheard of. I had a waiting list for pups from Indie, and had been accepted to use a good quality stud dog, yet I took the hard decision to have her spayed.

I know a GR dog that's offered at selective stud with an elbow grade of 2, and I know the owner a little - at least they know the grade, and have proven the dog in competition; however, you will still find many bitch owners would prefer to use a dog that hasn't had their elbows graded, than a dog with a grade of 2. And yet the unknown quantity could prove to be a 3 for all they know, because, as has been said earlier on this thread, not all dogs show outward signs of the condition of their elbows or hips.

Just because you don't have the full picture is no reason to ignore the information you do have.
Which you didn't.
My last post was just saying what I would think about before saying yes or no, and that whoever slated you had no right without all the facts themselves.

And my view is that all dogs should be health tested before being shown yes - and if you get a bad result then show in companion shows at the likes of dog trust events. Even if not everyone who shows breeds, A LOT do. Obviously puppy classes would be an exception, but they can't be made up as a pup.

I also think all working breeds should be worked/proven in a working environment before entering the conformation ring. You can't be classed as a good example of the breed if you can't do what it was originally bred for.

There is one GSD group in Scotland that requires health tests and working qualifications to join/enter the show. It's excellent. In Germany dogs have to be health tested and SchH qualified. There is a bitework part of shows.

Yes, but on that argument, you would avoid the dog with a 2 elbow grade, in preference for an unknown, or many would, because the '2' grade is in the minds of those looking to breed, bad, and I think we need to disassociate ourselves away from that exact way of thinking. It's like the genetic status for affected, which often means the dog isn't clinically affected, and may never be affected within it's lifetime. At the moment, health test status is taken in a bit of a fluffy way (for want of a better way of describing it) I feel, where everyone wants to breed clear of everything, and I think breeders have got some cold, hard clinical decisions to make in the future. The more we know about our dogs, the more conditions we will find out they are possibly going to suffer from within a life time. There will be two options, carry on breeding with that knowledge, or stop breeding.

I can see a difference where a breed has a specific problem within the gene pool, but where there is a healthy population overall, I do not agree with discarding dogs that are't perfect according to their genetic status or other health test results, with the proviso that it depends very much on the rest of the dog.

I don't agree with having to health test dogs for showing them, not where the person isn't interested in breeding, it'd be a nice to have bit of info, but otherwise it's an outlay that will force many of those who enjoy it as a hobby to stop participating.

In the same way, I can't see people who aren't interested in gundog stuff for example, taking their dog out to work to prove their ability, there is the option there, but I don't feel it should be compulsory. There are actually more and more people involved in gundog stuff, it's become popular just as a way of training using the natural ability of the dog.

I'm probably not making much sense as I'm still stuffed full of cold, and I hope you don't feel I'm picking on your posts, but there have been some interesting points raised by the debate I feel.

To get back to judging HD on movement. A long while back I worked for a vet who had a great interest in this. He would pick put a dog with HD when it came into the surgery for something else. he would then ask the owner if he could xray it and if he was wrong then he would not charge them. They always had a degree of HD. This was with young dogs before any arthritic changes so he would perform a very simple operation which never seems to be used any more. He would cut the pectineal muscle on the inside of the thigh and resect a short length of it. By the time the dogs came back to have the stitches out the owners would have noticed that their dog moved much more easily, even though they had not been aware of a problem before.

I really dont understand why that op has not taken off. I had a collie who, though never lame, would not jump, would not run for long and was just not right for a young collie. I was working in another practice then and the other nurse and I took an illicit xray! and she had almost square femoral heads. I asked the vet to operate, he had never done it but it is so simple he did it under my instructions. Before the stitches were out she was running, jumping park railings for fun and a totally different dog.
A friend of mine had a young beardie with HD, on my advice she persuaded her vet to operate. That dog lived till it was 15 and never had a moments more problems with her hips.

Obviously a bit off topic as you still would not breed from them - but it solves a lot of problems for the dog - so long as it is done young and before any arthritis sets in.