I understand the basics of the COI, but would be grateful if someone could help me get a better picture.

Breed average for Cavaliers is 5.2%, and the COI of Stella's pups was 2.8%. Both dogs had a COI well below breed average.

Now thinking ahead, the dogs I am looking at have COI higher than breed average, but the COI of the mating would be low, around 3.8%.

So, should I be more concerned about the high value of the sire, or does the low COI of the mating mean that it is a good match.

With the CM/SM protocols changing there is so much to think about, it is going to get much harder to meet all the requirements. I want to know how much of a concern COI is, but need the experience/advice of those who know more about it than me.

Our last (first) litter was carefully planned, with all health tests passed and up to date, which they will also be (if there's a) next time with the addition of the DNA for DE/CC & EF.

Thankies

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Stella, Louis and Asha

You want my honest opinion?

COI is nice to have - breeding by numbers - don't even go there.

Does your dog have the strengths to complement your bitch's weakness?

Are his health tests OK - do you think the pedigree is a good match on paper? - do you have any really close relatives on both sides in positions that you feel would make you uncomfortable?

If you feel that on paper, the position of certain dogs makes you uncomfortable - at that point, IMHO does the COI become significant - frequently I've looked at pedigrees and thought oooh - but actually, the COI's have been much lower than I'd have anticipated - and similarly - I've looked at peds I wouldn't have thought for one minute look tight - but the figures tell a very different story.

In addition to the above - I assume you are taking the COI off the KC database? this is done over 8 generations - and you will find that there will be dogs missing from these 8 generations - it took me a while to work out why they were coming up with different figures to mine in my database - and it's because of the missing dogs

I should also add - that for a relatively small gene pool - that COI is LOW - as is the breed average low - lower in fact than more popular breeds - this would also make me question it - do you know anyone with a database who could do some tracking for you?

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

^^^ what Swarthy said, COI is at the gimmicky stage!

Thanks for your replies. It was the KC one, and does seem to tie in with the breed's database, although I haven't checked that against one particular dog. There are other factors, which mean my choice is going to be limited anyway.

...So if there's one dog that crops up on both sides, but in different generations, with a different mating, is that not necessarily a bad thing? I would have thought you'd want to avoid that?

It is harder than last time, as I really need an older, clear stud to comply with the new guidelines. At the moment it's practically impossible to get it spot on - the new protocols haven't come in yet, and appear to be open to interpretation (and abuse, potentially ) so I don't want to muff things up just through not understanding the numbers.

I'm learning all the time, and I'm afraid the more I learn the harder it gets.

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Stella, Louis and Asha

It's not so much that it's at the 'gimmicky' stage - it's been around nearly as long as the Labrador has been recognised by the UK KC - but I do think there's a massive risk if people start factoring this above other areas such as conformation, health and temperament.

I treat it almost as a curiosity tool - many a time I've been asked, or thought to myself, that mating looks tight - only to find the COI tells a very different story - and as above, sometimes I've been surprised that the COI has been higher than I'd have anticipated.

SB - you don't say what the COI is of the sire, but I am assuming it is not ridiculously high (although I always look at them over 10 generations) - or the pairing is a complete outcross.

If the dog complements your bitch and the health test results are in order, then a COI of 3.8% for the resulting pups is low and certainly wouldn't have me running for the hills - as for puppy buyers - they have enough to contend with with just explaining health-results and worming schedules - believe me when I say it would be a step too far for the average puppy buyer if you started talking COI's

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

I was chatting to a breeder who said that she only line breeds and wouldnt breed her dog to a open pedigree, kinda get what she said, but never had a chance to ask her why! Anyone think of a reason?

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So, am I right in thinking then, that the predicted COI of the mating is more important that the COI of an individual parent? In a nutshell, like!

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Stella, Louis and Asha

yes - it's the COi of the predicted mating that is the important factor - but COi's must be looked at in context of the overall package - as Swarthy said you cannot breed by numbers ! - with ever increasing hoops to jump through it is almost impossible to find dogs that will meet every criteria -

There are plenty of reasons to line breed - mostly because you are more likely to get a 'type', you'll know what the pups will look like, with a total outcross this is unlikely. You'll also, if you know the pedigrees, know what you're getting in terms of temperament and good points (and bad if you don't know the pedigrees). With an outcross what you get in the litter is more of a 'lucky dip' as the two lines are new to each other.

Note this is line breeding rather than 'inbreeding' - the lines between the two may be fuzzy but this is where you COI comes in.

It's also (IMO) more likely that you'll get good hip scores from good hip scoring parents if you line breed - the possibilities of an outcross throwing up new genes which may cause HD is more likely. With line bred dogs they're more likely to have the same HD genes so low scoring parents are more likely to have low scoring progeny. None of this is, of course, guaranteed.

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Penny
Funfastquick Agility Dogs

This is SO true. I saw the new guidelines yeaterday, and it would seem that despite years of planning and trying to do everything by the book, our last litter could be seen as a 'do not breed' - despite having every test done and to every criteria in place at the time



Thank you, very informative and well put!

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Stella, Louis and Asha