hi everyone,
so we started looking at potential puppies last night and were absolutely dumbfounded but what we saw.
we had been told that the pups would ready for the end of december so was quite suprised to be greeted not by a 6 week old bundle of cuddles but a shed and a bx of puppies who were born last Sunday! how can they be ready by the end of month was immediately the question that came to mind.... 'oh you can take them at 3-4 weeks, they don;t need their mum by then' right!? alarm bells begin to ring....
well he took us out the back to meet the mum and dad and the rest of the pups who were with the mum and the TWO females he's got knocked up were in sheds and the male in a small pen. the adults looked and seemed fine and were friendly but when i asked how old they were he said the one who had just had the pups was 2 and this was her SECOND LITTER (!) and the other girl was 15 months and about to pop. these are gsd's by the way and trouble turned 2 last month and she has only just reached her full size and is starting to get her adult brain.
he was very open about the problems he had had with the first litter 6 months ago, he'd lost 5 of the 11 pups because (in his words) 'i didn't know what i was doing' !!!!!!! he was bragging out his 'inventions' that he had worked out for this litter, basic things that even i know about it the its and bobs of research i had done while deciding whether to take a litter from Trouble.

its not like these pups are lowest of the lows in price, they are a mid range to cheaper £400 a pup and he had 11 with another bitch about to give birth to lots more!!!

people on this forum can be quite hostile to people asking breeding questions and know i really understand why! Trouble was a cheap pup but she didn't have to endure that sort of start in life. I couldn't believe what i was seeing last night!

soooo, what can i do? is there someone i can contact to go check on them, they do look fine a part from the age of the mothers but it's the fact these pups will leave for their news homes at around 20-28 days old!!!

That's so sad, make a call to the RSPCA & get them to go & check on them. I posted a very sad thread yesterday about my friend who stupidly bought from a back yard breeder, her puppy died yesterday at 14 weeks from brain damage due to seizures caused by an inherited genetic condition. People like this need to be stopped

Unfortunately price is no reliable indicator of the quality of the pups and the care gone into the breeding. I've known of puppy farmed puppies selling for more than health tested, quality pedigree pups in my breed.

The best thing is to ask questions on the phone before you visit. I'm betting they haven't had all the relevant health tests done.

i have messaged the rspca the details of what i saw, i dont know if they will be able to do anything

If you ont get any joy, phone the local council dog warden. I know ours and they are both really caring people. In fact as a back up while you are waiting, might be worth having a chat to them initially off the record.

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I'm the same with my dog warden- he actually has a wee rant to me about ba breeders when I see him, and anytime ive spotted something that a dog warden could address, I Always let him know- even if it isn't in his area! He always passes on the concern to their local DW or calls the uspca instead of me doing it- I sometimes think yhey were not worth calling because they never sound to concerned (become numb to neglect stories etc I suppose) but if a DW calls in a complaint... That has a heck of a lot more weight to it!

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I liked your initial post (even though I didn't like the content) because how refreshing to see someone with the strength to walk away and ask questions.

Will echo Rocco's concerns that the health tests won't have been done on either parent, and this is a breed that MUST have the health-tests done, - I've been away from GSD's a long time, but they are not without their problems on the hip and elbow front (and other conditions I am sure )

I very doubt the RSPCA will do anything

HOWEVER - If they are licensed breeders - then legally they MUST have 12 months between each litter form the same bitch (so could have two in whelp at the same time - but not how I think you describe of a 2 year old bitch on her second litter).

IN addition, if a breeder is licensed, then legally, they are not permitted to sell those pups until they are AT LEAST 8 weeks old - it's very true for some litters that mum may no longer feed or even bother with her babies by 4 weeks (although the exception rather than the rule) - however, they desperately need the interaction and social skills they learn from their litter mates - and believe me, it's notthe greatest of fun being a "human" litter mate to most breeds, never mind GSD's and Labs - both of whom I've found through my own experience can be quite mouthy (with SHARP teeth) - at 7/8 weeks, never mind if they don't go through the rough and tumble of 3/4 weeks with their litter mates.

If they are not a licensed breeder - then check with their local council what the regulations are for needing a license.

The standard regulation is 5 litters in a 12 month period before you need a license, however - a lot of councils whittle this down to 4/3 and a rare few even 2 litters - so it's quite possible they could be in danger of contravening licensing regulations, if not now, sometime in the very near future.

And well done you for caring and having the strength to walk away.

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Sounds like he still doesn't know what he is doing. He thinks he has learned a few things, perhaps he would have been appreciative to be told that puppies need their littermates till eight weeks, not their mum.

Perhaps he doesn't know about health tests. The idea of buying a GSD with no hip scoring is horrifying in itself. I doubt the RSPCA will do anything, but certainly contact the council and dog warden.

Sounds to me like he doesn't know he is doing anything wrong.

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Both parents should at least be hip scored, with elbow for choice plus the sire should be haemophilia tested clear. Dogs should also be eye tested. They should also be healthy without problems such as anal frunculosis (auto immune problem)

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The standard regulation is 5 litters in a 12 month period before you need a license, however - a lot of councils whittle this down to 4/3 and a rare few even 2 litters - so it's quite possible they could be in danger of contravening licensing regulations, if not now, sometime in the very near future.