Last night at agility I was talking to one of my classmates. She's a senior vet nurse at a practice specialising in orthopaedics. She was telling me that hip scores can change radically through the dog's life. One of her dogs had perfect hips (properly scored) when she first took on the dog, a rescue aged about 2, but now the dog has displaced/misshapen hips. She's had the dog about 7 years now.

So by that reckoning, hip scoring will only pick up cases where the hips are poor at a young age (assuming the dog scored at around 1-2), NOT the (inherited?) propensity for the hips to deteriorate through the dog's life.

She went on to say 'that's why farmers don't breed from their bitches until they're about 8 or 9, to know the hips will stay good'.

Thoughts on this?

I'd prefer to see dogs scored between 2 and 3 years of age, I think the minimum age in the US is 24 months, where as here it's 12 months. For me, the skeletal structure is still maturing.

That said, and Swarthy's really the one to ask re Labs, as far as I know, if a dog has a good set of hips then it will remain so throughout the lifetime. However, if a dog has the propensity to develop hip dysplasia, then the hips can deteriorate substantially. But that can also be down to environmental factors, exercise and diet etc.

Unfortunately, there is no way of assessing whether the condition of the hips at 2 will be the same throughout the lifetime of a dog, unless you choose to score every year, which is too costly for most dog owners. However, I think you need to continually assess your own dogs, I know Indie, for example, will never be as lithe and fit as she was when she was younger, partly from her cruciate injury, partly from overexercise, which the ex firmly believed she needed to tire her out. Edited to add, Indie's hips are 3:3 but she shows signs of lameness to her knee where she injured herself, and you can physically feel the arthritis on there.

Also, dogs with a poor set of hips may show no outward signs they have developed any problems, they may have terrible hips, but appear outwardly sound in every respect.

As for farmers? I'd suggest it was more because they don't want to lose a working bitch to having a litter of pups, rather wait until they're too old to work, and then take a litter. That's far too old for a first litter for my liking, I'm assuming we're talking BC's here, which aren't that slow at maturing.

That's what I thought too.

But even if you did score every year, and then found the hips had deteriorated a lot, and had bred from the dog, you could be passing on the likelihood of it happening to the progeny. I know you can't guard against everything, but all the same as there's such empasis now on health testing, maybe later hip scores should form part of the dog's health profile. If the change from good to poor hips became apparent in certain lines, it would be better not to use them, or use them with care.

I was shocked at the idea of taking a first litter from a bitch of 8 or 9, and said so, but B. said the dogs were fit, working dogs and you couldn't compare that to show dogs kept in domestic situations. Of course the farmer wanting to not have a worker out of action must play a part, but most farmers who use dogs to herd have more than just the 1 or 2.

The whole subject came up after I was asking about the dogs she was looking after at the last class, and she had to leave a bit early to go back and prepare for surgery; a farmer hadn't fastened the back of his land rover properly, and when it came open the dogs baled out as normal when the door opened. Trouble was, he was doing 60mph on the A66 at the time. All 3 dogs had fractures and other injuries, but they are all recovering - though will probably never work again. The cost of the surgery and rehabilitation will be considerable, but at least the farmer is having this done, rather than cut his losses and euthanise.

Yes, I would doubt in this sort of context that hips are a consideration - they certainly wouldn't hip score the dogs... whilst I didn't have Oswy hip scored I have had him xrayed at age of 7 as he had a mysterious intermittent lameness... his hips were as near perfect as they could be so they certainly shouldn't deteriorate unless there was a 'weakness' or perhaps injury. I wouldn't be in a rush to score my sheps at 12 months, rather that they were more mature to give a better picture. There's no need to get them done as soon as possible. I would NOT however let a maiden bitch have a litter at 8 years old - 2 years ago I went through a really bad day with a friend who let her (border collie) bitch have a first litter at 7 and it was a nightmare. She was very lucky to have two live pups - but needed a c-section to remove 2 dead ones - as the first in particular was well stuck and took a very experienced vet to yank him out, covered in that yellow - stress - colour but he survived and is now huge. Far to risky health wise for mum and babies.

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Penny
Funfastquick Agility Dogs

Would just add that this bitch was a very fit agility dog..... not an overweight under exercised dog

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Penny
Funfastquick Agility Dogs

Genes aren't the only thing that can affect hips, poor nutrition or excess weight before adulthood or hard exercise putting a strain on growing joints can play a part also.

The body ages and deteriorates, that's just nature. Poor hips when tested at 1 - 2 yrs of age will show up any existing faults which would deteriorate further in time.

I know it doesn't sound charitable but based on a couple of farmers I have known I would guess that farmers who breed later do so because they don't want the bitch to have time off from work, that is they do need her to be working, and they want to breed a replacement who will be working before she retires.

IMHO

I don't think I know of one farmer that actually hip scores their dogs? So given that a dog can have very dysplastic hips and show no outward signs, taking a litter given on this basis, doesn't at all guarantee good hips. In fact a dog that has been brought up to work, is less likely I should think than a dog that is in a pet or show home to show outward signs, as their muscular development will help offset any problems with the actual joints. I know for some injuries, the thinking is that sometimes it's best to leave the joints unsupported to allow the muscles/ligaments etc, to develop to support the joints, hence my thinking down that route.

I'm not sure it's fair to ask someone who's allowed their dog to mature, done the hip score, researched the breed and knows there's no problem, to then hip score their dog later on in life, particularly if there's no other reason for a GA, and pay for the privilege, just to see if their hips have deteriorated and to what extent. I think from looking back through both of my girl's pedigrees, I found either two or three hip scores that were substantially higher than the BMS, back in the third and fourth generation at closest. There's certainly no pattern of high scores, nor any substantial number of relatives with high scores that I know of. But this is where I always say that the health test results are so much more than the results for the individual dog in front of you, and why the BMS is just that, a mean standard, it's not a benchmark.

Edited to add, interesting and thought provoking post though

I dispute this with plenty of statistical evidence to back it up (however - I do recognise that the presence of cartilidge / muscle damage can create wear and tear on the joints which could potentially affect dogs scores over time).

Notwithstanding that - good hips will stay good - there are records of dogs scoring zero at 8, 9, 10 years of age during the early days of the scoring scheme. I know of someone whose bitch got caught - she did every health test she could (pre puppies being born) and the hips / elbows etc of the sire whilst she got him neutered - then had the hips / elbows done of the bitch - and even after that - her hips were less then 10.

A dog - just like a human can develop arthritis - but there is no direct correlation between hipscores and arthritis - although obviously a dog with poor joint conformation / carrying too much weight / overdoing the exercise is likely to suffer greater impact on their joints all round than your slimline moderately exercised couch-potato - and therefore the former is also more likely to be at a greater risk of arhtritis - exactly as in humans.

Good hips won't just 'displace' without a very good reason for doing so - moderate to severe dysplasia becomes apparent in most dogs by the time they are 12 months old - if this doesn't happen, then it tends to remain asymptomatic until the dog is of an age when it could suffer from arthritis - and of course, that age will differ between every dog.

I am not yet 50, but in the last couple of years have suffered significant deterioration of my spinal column - for which there just HAS to be a genetic link, as I have identical conditions to my late father.

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To return to hips, there are so many factors which can affect a plate - and that can be as simple as a bad radiographer - I've known of dogs diagnosed with dysplasia where none actually exists.

I've known of dogs having plates taken at 13 months and being diagnosed with "moderately bad hips" because the joints having settled and then coming back with a score below 15 at 3 years of age.

I've known of dogs scored under the UK scheme before 2 years old and scoring good (but not perfect) hips and then scored again overseas and being shown to have perfect hips.

I've got a bitch here scored at 18 months, her hipscore all round was terrible - but also imbalanced - we had her plates taken again just over 12 months later, - and found that her 'better hip' had actually improved - but her bad one had deteriorated - the vet who is. in fairness, very good at 'rating hips' in line with the BVA felt her overall score would have been the same - but that the better hip would have been lower and the worse hip higher - which actually suggests the complete opposite of what your friend says.

Any living creature with joints can develop arthritis - and yes, joints can deteriorate for many reasons as life continues - but hips simply do not deteriorate to the level that a perfect scoring dog at 14 months will score say 106 at 5 years - and there are over 105K records in one breed and two countries, and many many many more breed statistics to re-enforce that.

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I don't score my dogs at 12 months, I usually wait until 18 months plus - but often, the dogs you think will have the worst hips because of the way they are, actually tend to have the best hips - because when you look at it laterally - no-dog could get up to the antics some of them do if their hips were b*ggared!!!!!

In America, they don't score until 24 months, and there has to be reasons behind this - and could explain why some dogs plates at 13 months are worse than they are at 3 years old - more to do with the joints / bones settling.

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The propensity for wear and tear on the joints through loss of cartilage is very different to that for poor bone / joint formation - and would be nigh on impossible to measure. Once cartilage is damaged / worn away - then bone rubs on bone (my OH can tell you all about that) - then joints will start to deform and damage - if the hips are affected joints, only then would you see a deterioration in hipscores.

My last three dogs have been scored at 16 months, 18 months and 2.5 and came back 5/4, 3/4 and 4/3 respectively (16 months only because I managed to get two time slots together)

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

I have just attended a seminar where one of the main subjects was HD by an Orthopaedic Referral Surgeon.

Whilst HD is a complex, multi factorial condition it is the result of an underlying genetic weakness. This can be influenced by growth rate, obesity, exercise and trauma.

Therefore any deterioration in original hip scores will be triggered by one of more of these environmental factors affecting the original skeletal make up.

Whlst the majority of hip scoring systems are conducted in the same way eg how the dog is presented for x ray, the PennHIP method is different and is also done at an earlier age and there are stats to demonstrate it is a better predictor of hip health.

I was hoping you'd spot this one Swarthy, I know you've collated such a lot of information about this in relation to Labradors, and have come across many scenarios from owners through your various links, as well as your own personal experiences. I know from my own personal experience, vets can completely fluff plates, and there's little or no come back if you leave it too late. I'd like to see a similar scheme as for the eye specialists where vets who take the best plates are put on a BVA list, as I think that would help with a more accurate picture, but that's going OT slightly.