Are people so ignorant, arrogant, rude and downright selfish when it comes to breeding their dog? It just amazes me how when given truly good advice they come up with all the pathetic excuses under the sun as to why they are intentionally going to go ahead with it. Oh and they love them sooo much that they are willing to risk their dogs life for it - cos that is true love eh?
The most absurd comment I think i have ever heard is "if she refuses she won't have a litter" like she is a woman who can just say "not tonight darling I have a head ache"

Beggers belief how weird some people are and really riles me up too!

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Flynn - Kali - Britches - Bruce - T-Bo - Marty



"For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack"

I too feel people humanize their dogs way too much. I was helping with an Australian Shepherd breeding. The woman with the bitch was so overwhelmed that her "dog was loosing her virginity" she was in tears. It was a maiden bitch so she wasn't happy with the male at first.lol The bitch's owner runs over to her dog and shields her from the male. I laughed like mad, but was a little upset that she just barged in like she did. She could have hurt herself or one of the dogs! She did eventually calm down and just let us do what we needed to do.

I totally agree with you on this. I don't understand why people bother to join forums like these when they have these stubborn attitudes as they are not prepared to discuss things at all. Perhaps when such people see that the forum is called "Dog Breeding" they think that everyone in it is going to be congratulating them for breeding any old dog they have. And the anthropomorphism you mentioned is just plain childish. People need to really grow up and value their domestic pets for what they are without tainting the relationship by imposing human values on them.

It's sad isn't it, and the people who speak up and advise against this sort of breeding are often the ones to get the flack as well. I'm afraid I can't bring myself to be happy looking at pictures of a litter of pups where there was every chance not to go ahead if the situation was less than ideal, and yet the breeder chose to because they simply wanted to and couldn't bring themselves to make the responsible decision. Every puppy is cute and lovely, but every puppy grows up into a dog, and those dogs are being killed every day because of our selfish wants.

I know a few people on here say it, there's no such thing as an accidental litter, and I agree in the majority of circumstances there isn't. There's only a couple of occasions where I'd say that's it's different, like taking on a rescue bitch that's pregnant, with or without prior knowledge.

I am not sure how we should be reading this and I am sure everyone will put their own interpretation on it.

I agree people do humanise their dogs far too much in many ways - from the scenario you describe (however - maiden bitches can have pain on mating and no-one wants to see any living creature they love suffering pain even if they understand why they are doing it) to how they perceive a dog's view on life. Ultimately, whilst faithful, with possibly a few breed and individual dog exceptions - all a dog is interested in is food, warmth affection and no cruelty towards it (even if it doesn't realise what cruelty is).

My late father always used to allude to certain professions where dogs are handled more harshly than others - yet the dogs IDOLISED their owners / handlers - and whilst he and I disagreed on pretty much anything to do with dogs (other than them being left home alone all day) - I also know that what he said was right.


To come back to the breeding issue.

My eldest bitch whelped her puppies like it was something she had done all her life - I've never seen her happier than when she had pups to care for - feeding remaining babies at 12/13 weeks with no thought of teeth - trying to clean up after them and basically being the model mum.

Her daughter OTOH made gut wrenching, blood curdling screams delivering each of the first four puppies and rejected each and every one of them (she did eventually come around) - you can call that humanising a dog if you wish, I call it dislike for seeing a living being I love in pain.

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There are some who believe all females (irrespective of species) were 'born to breed' and this simply isn't the case - a woman can make a conscious decision whether or not she wants a child - no other domesticated animal has the capacity to do this because humans make the decision for them.

If the bitch then tries to kill or rejects her babies - the first you know this will happen is when she is giving birth.

No bitch needs a litter - no-one knows how that bitch is going to be with her babies - I will NEVER forgive myself for breeding my second bitch as long as I live - it did change her - and has made me think very seriously about doing it again - I probably will (if my health facilitates it - not the same bitch) - but a similar experience and I won't be doing it again.

The trouble is - so many people have no concept of health-testing or why they want to breed - they think they know their breed simply from owning a dog - I know I did when I started out - but I did know to get the full complement of health-tests done before going any further - I also knew I needed to learn about the breed and understand the risks - I started showing my eldest girl with some (but not great success) - I went to breed seminars - I looked at other dogs in the ring and ascertained the type of dog I liked - and then made a decision not to breed but to buy in a new foundation bitch.

Sadly, this time the health results were not on my side, and when I got over the heartbreak I went back to plan A - outlining about a 15 year plan of where I would like to go - that plan changes constantly as obstacles arise and I am on it..

I am no saint - my dogs aren't perfect - I can't guarantee things won't go wrong with mating / whelping or even the pups and I make this VERY clear to puppy owners because it is important they understand.

I will probably never breed a SH CH or FT CH - but what I do hope to be able to achieve is a type of Lab that I like who can hold it's own in the showring at all levels - I half managed it with my first generation, and if my girl in France had continued to have been shown - who knows?

I've moved on with my second generation - but know I still have a way to go (probably about 3/4 generations) - and all the time I am setting out to improve my lines conformationally by careful selection of studs based on

• Health,
• Temperament,
• conformation and where possible
• Pedigree
• Previous progeny they've produced and to what bitches.

The top three are interchangeable as often I may see a dog I like and then start looking into it - so appearance may be my first opinion, but I will review if health or temperament are not right - fortunately, I am in a breed where good producing sires with excellent health records are in abundance - many breeds are not that fortunate.

Everyone has to start somewhere and unlike others - I feel there is, in some breeds, a place for responsible pet breeders - even if only because it reduces business for Puppy Farmers and Back Yard Breeders - but I fail to see how anyone can sit in isolation and believe they know what is right and wrong about their dog - they can't - they have to learn and that takes decades not weeks, months or years - and along the way - people will probably make mistakes - but starting out right by using the health-tests, having an experienced mentor, considering type and temperament and learning about your chosen breed are as good a starting point as any

It's a shame so many of these people who ask the question don't realise this

I would never wish a dog or it's young any harm - but it's also frighteningly apparent that these people who do go into it so lightly always seem to escape all the known potential problems with matings and whelpings - because I can guarantee from my own experience (no surgery required and 6 of the 7 pups survived) just this would put very many of them off ever doing it again.

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

It`s because frequently the dog is nicer (and brighter) than the owner, unfortunately.

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It's quite funny actually, a well respected person in the dog world wrote into one of the papers saying this - I can't remember the reasons behind it (it certainly wasn't to do with breeding) - but the principle was pretty much the same

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

Can I just add a note of caution to his - in theory you are right, in reality - occasionally, where dogs and bitches are kept together - quick ties and slip matings can potentially go un-noticed - if a bitch only has one or two pups in there - it's not unheard of for it to go un-noticed until very late on in the pregnancy - the difference there is, for many of these people, their dogs are fully health-tested - so often while maybe not what they planned, not the end of the world either.

I know of one pup from such an instance that went on to become an International Champion - so far from the end of the world

AS someone who has a mixed entire household - you always have to be on your guard and things can and do happen quickly - I try my damndest to ensure it doesn't happen - but I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say it won't.

It's ironic however that you get all these accidental matings in pet homes, yet when someone tries to bring two of their health-tested dogs together intentionally - it fails miserably - no justice sometimes

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

Exactly why I kind of added the proviso, as I know it's possible for even experienced folk to get caught out, things aren't always black and white. As you've said before, and just as I might in the future, there but for the grace of God!

But no, it's when you get peole who don't even take precautions, or know they've bought a pregnant bitch and have no idea of the breeding, and still want to let her have the babies because it's wrong to kill unborn puppies. My response is it's wrong to kill a year old puppy, a two year old dog, a five, ten year old dog, just because it's now unwanted and there's no way to trace where it came from, who brought it into this world, made that decision to allow a life to be born that would end so sadly and their conscience will never even feel a passing bit of remorse, because all they remember are the cute puppies they let their bitch have, they don't see and don't care how it ends

Rant over, I'm off for another cuppa and to draw some defects on abutments........

I do wonder if a lot of the threads are simply wind ups as surely no one is as incredibly stupid as some appear to be. Can't think they would not have read other threads first so would know likely reaction so why would they bother unless its for their idea of fun

I know loads of dog owners and only 2 have ever bred - one bred & showed English Setters for years, the other showed whippets bred one litter (with 3 mentors) said never again as found it too stressful. Other than those two no one else I know would dream of breeding in fact would not enter their heads.