Hi

i have a wonderfull black labrador called maddie . i have always been very proud of her beautifull shiny coat, she really is one of the shiniest labradors i have seen.

i wont be getting another one until shes gone and since she is only seven i hope it wont be for many years to come .

but when i do start to look for another one my criteria is this

bitch
health checked parents with good hip and eye results
parents with really good shiny coats
and obviously great temperament of both parents and puppy

now i know feeding plays a good part in getting a shiny coat but im sure a great deal of my dogs shiny comes from here breeding.

i didnt get her from a breeder so have never seen either her dam or sire.
i do have her pedigree but am unimpressed with the parents health results . ( i didnt look at her paperwork when i got her as i had no idea test results were included on her pedigree ) .

consequently i wont be lookin for her breeder .

but i do want to see both the dam and sire , now i know many breeders just own the dam and the sire will likely be kept by a different breeder.

is it ok to contact breeders of stud dogs and visit the sire and then if i like him is it ok to visit a bitch that he will be mated to , to see if i like her in advance so that i can pick a puppy from a pairing where i like both dogs as opposed to only knowing about the dam. ?

Hello and welcome to the forum

I'm not yet a breeder, but there are a few Labrador breeders on here, Swarthy who shows her dogs, and rocco33 who works theirs. Both only breed when they want to keep back a pup for themselves, and do the appropriate health tests etc.

As for the shiny coat, yes, I too believe this is down to feeding, both of mine are raw fed, and have always had shiny coats:



Other than the health tests you've mentioned, I would start to research elbow grading, similar to hip scores except it's a much smaller range, with a possible grade of 0-3 for each elbow, although the grade is expressed as the highest figure. So a 2:2 is a 2, and a 2:0 is a 2. As with hip scores, the lower the better.

I'd also want to know that the parents were tested or clear for CNM and PRA, Swarthy's website is brilliant for explaining all this, just google Lab Health. There are a few other tests available, and lots in development, a total of 24 I believe currently available, soon to be available, and in the pipeline.

I'd have no problems with someone wanting to come and see my dogs, but I suppose that may vary from breeder to breeder. Not all stud dog owners keep bitches, preferring to keep just dogs, and, although I've never approached one myself for that reason, I'm sure if you explained why they'd give you a few minutes of their time to visit.

Well done for getting in early with the research, it's a message we push on here for puppy buyers to buy responsibly, unfortunately, the vast majority of people don't, so give yourself a pat on the back

your dogs are beautifull. is it me or is the one on the left silver or blue ? ive never seen one that colour

heres my maddie

thanks for the info i didnt realise there were so many tests ! i knew about the elbows , eyes and hips but didnt realise they could test for so many things.

It's in my siggie everything you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy (the site does need updating - I've had a number of requests to add more info to the site).

Absolute MUSTS are hips and eyes - eyes don't have good scores, it's a straight "unaffected" or "affected" and then whatever condition(s) the dog is affected for.

Looking over on LF SL - I believe they are presently looking at the Elbow Grading scores - so no idea whether the score system will change?

It's becoming more common to find at least one parent elbow scored - but not all litters have both parents scored - it is only my two youngest have two elbow scorred parents - three of my others have one scored parent.

PRA is a DNA test which categorises the dog into Clear, Carrier or Affected status - genetically affected does not mean the dog is physically affected and may never be so - if one parent is untested, a carrier of affected then lto guarantee the pup never being affected, look for the other parent to be clear or hereditarily clear.

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With regards to CNM - some test, some don't - if you are looking for a pet, you pretty much have a cast iron guarantee the likelihood of you getting an affected dog are zillions to one.

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With regards to the coat - it's the diet - you will get some dogs who tend never to have a shiny coat - but I've not seen any correlation between parents and offspring - yellows will never have shiny coats - the coat should be dense with quite a hard feel when touching and sometimes even oily - as this is what protects the dog swimming in cold water.

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Good luck with your search - the Lab Health website does have some links to breeders - and there are many many more on the Champdogs website.

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

one of my dogs parents is PRA affected , the other one wasnt tested . if the untested one was a carrier or affected soes that mine maddie will get it and if so how old would she be when her eyes became affected . shes 7 now and has no sign of hip , elbow or eye problems . the other parent has a poor hip score.

i will take a look at your site . thanks .

OUch - it seems we've opened a can of worms here Sorry

Let's get the easy bits out of the way first - I am not a vet - however, I think from what I do know - it's safe to say - if she's not shown any sign of hip or eye problems at 7, then she's not going to, but of course could succumb to the ravages of arthritis which affect some older adults and humans alike - really - at this age, even if her hips and elbows weren't good - if she's reasonably fit - then the muscles would have built up to take over the job of weaker joints. If you were concerned, you could look at maybe adding some oily fish or a salmon oil to her diet

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Now to the slightly less straightforward bit.

How do you know dad was affected? was he genetically affected or did he fail his eye test?

Anyhow - the fact that he is affected - means it's all down to mum

If mum was clear - the worst your girl will be is a carrier and will never have a problem from it.

If mum was a carrier, your girl has a 50% chance of being affected - 50% chance of being a carrier (again, carrier status is not something you personally should worry about - I am assuming you have not bred from her?)

If mum is affected then your girl will be genetically affected

If your girl is affected - will she go blind?

You would be better off asking how long is a piece of string I believe it is typically a late onset condition, although there have been instances of dogs as young as 2 being affected - but these are - in my limited knowledge - rare.

Very few genetically affected dogs do go blind during their lifetime, but of course some do

How would you know? in the early stages I have got no idea

In the later stages, in the one affected dog I've seen, from memory, their eye was white and they were blind

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How do you find out? or do you even want to know?

you have two options - get your girl DNA tested - it would require a blood sample to be sent off to Optigen in the US for testing, the test takes around 2 weeks to come back (I've known them be faster and slower than this).

If she's a carrier - you have nothing to worry about.

If she's genetically affected - I (personally) would eye test her annually to keep a check on what's going on.

Alternatively - you could just wait.

I think in your shoes I would want to know one way or the other - but everyone is different. Unlike cataracts which can in some instances be operated on, I am not sure what, if anything can be done to prevent the onset of PRA or alleviate the symptoms, but happy to be corrected on this.

Conversely, if she has got a problem, it might help you to make day to day life easier for her.

Are you able to use the PM facility? I can check my database and see if I have any information on the parents - you might be able to work it out from there.

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

i have pm you with her parents details.

Hi Natty01, Swarthy's the one to chat with about genetic stuff, I have to re-read it each time as it goes in one ear and out the other, my brain just does not retain that sort of information I'm afraid, lol

The one on the left is Tau, she's just a pale chocolate, they can range from her sort of shade, to almost black. Here's a few more pics of them, not that I love posting pics of my dogs or anything







These are a couple of Tau at her palest, she sunbleaches so the colour isn't her natural shade, but paler than normal:









That last one was taken at about the same time as the first one I posted in a reply to you, and you can see the *points* are where her natural colour hasn't bleached, she's currently that colour all over:



Maddie looks lovely and shiny, no wonder you're so proud of her.

Edited to add, Swarthy's the one to talk to about Labrador pedigrees and health, she has a fabulous database of dogs with all the health test results, and I pick her brains when I need to know anything

Lovely pics

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RIP all my babies.
Monty LabxGSD 1972-1982
Jody Black Lab1982-1999
KizzyLabx Goldie 1983-1994
Larry Yellow Lab 1985-1993
Charlie Black Lab 1986 -1997
Ben Yellow Lab 1985-1999
Pud Choc Lab 1989-2003
Bridgit Black Lab 1991-2004
Floss Yellow Lab1992-2006
Millie Yellow Lab1994-2010
My boy Ted, my first my last my everything.Golden Retriever 1/8/98-28/6/2011