Are there any charts or empirical guides that offer a rough prediction for expected colour variations in the pups from parents/grandparents with different coloured coats.

I've read this write up but seek some more experienced guidance please.

I know it's all in the genes and that also carries the body shape and temperament profile as well.

This is for non pedigree dogs that have particular traits I would like to maintain and develop. I guess this is how and new breed is developed.

These sites might help

Coat Color Genetics
Dog Coat Color Genetics

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Interested in Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers? www.thetollerclub.org.uk

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Chinese cresteds have widely varied coat colours and patterns
Heres an article on it if its of any help to you
Chinese Crested Dog - Welcome to ChineseCrested.no :: Information and pedigree site

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The New Look Willow's Place Website
http://willowsplace.weebly.com/

I have been studying this topic for years and have lots of links saved, which I'll post later as my pups are upset I'm stopping this long (walk time).

Many color genes and their inheritance patterns are similar across all dogs breeds (and in fact across many mammalian species). There are some very specific mutations that occur only in certain breeds however.

One of the very difficult things to work through, I find, for many that ask on this topic, is that there are MANY color genes that create a color and pattern in a dog, and you have to consider the interaction of all of them.

Another difficulty is actually knowing the color of the adult dog - as with many dogs the colors have changed since birth through modifiers. It is through the birth colour that you'll be able to figure out the genes the best.

An example of this would be Yorkshire Terrier pups. Yorkies are genetically a't'/a't (black and tan) on the agouti locus, just like Rottweillers in fact, but both breeds have different modifiers that contribut to making the colors look very different to eachothers in adulthood -a Yorkie's tan creeps into the black and modifiers lighten the coloring.

Anyway --- off for a walk, but before I do go here is one site that is quite good.

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Feel free to post the colors/photos of the parent/grandparent dogs and I'll help you through what they might produce.

CC

I can help with solid colouration coat / colour inheritance in Labs which should, in theory, for solid coloured dogs carry through cross-breeds of solid colours - some still struggle to get their heads around it - but am guessing this will be at a lower level than you are looking for.

I am half afraid to ask what you are trying to acheive but am curious, and I am sure others would be as well.

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

Well I have this plan for world domination you see, I just need to find the gene needed to grow their opposing thumb and these dogs will conquer this planet and beyond. [cue dramatic music and lightning flashes]

My dogs are litter mates, the result of a Rottweiler ** vs misc. They are of great temperament do everything we ask of them and will be 4 years old next year. They are slim and muscular at 45 Kg, one has classic Rottweiller colouring although his does not have the snout or broad chest of a rottie the other looks like a Black Labrador, just with the white chest, paws and tip of tail that I have seen in both cats and dogs. If there is a better expression than Tuxedo to describe this variation please enlighten me.

** Their father was 53 Kg Rottweiler owned by a close friend of mine.

I stumbled across a site talking about the Canadian St. John's Water Dog, the pictures show a dog that is very similar in colouring scheme.

A friend of ours has a lady Rottweiler that has produced a few litters, she is the loveliest big scary dog there is. She was very happy to play with me when she had one of her first litters about 4 years ago, totally a family orientated dog. One of the lady pups from her second litter was taken by a friend of my wife and lives nearby, I guess she is 18 months - 2 years old now. As she has known me (my smell) since being about 3 weeks old and through regular contact is always so pleased to see me. (she goes mental!) Her colouring is almost pure black with white toes. Slim bodied, muscular, a bit excitable but again a great family dog.

It is the two black dogs that I would consider breeding (an arrangement with my wife's friend would not be too difficult - they are very much dog people too), the objective to keep these qualities and temperaments as they have parentage that are known to us. There is no CHD or ED that we know of going back to G.G.Parents.

From looking at dogs from named breeds I see there are traits that seemed to be eluded to by their colouring, to simplify the analogy the dog's coat is like the label on a tin it tells you what the dog's nature will be - what happens after that is nurture and training. It's the combination of the two that make a good dog.

This is not a project that I'm looking to instigate very soon - but something I've been considering and seek information about. We have access to people with the practical nuts & bolts of breeding - but they only breed within their own chosen breeds.

There are many such mistake dogs seeking a home in the world, but we have a few relations that have expressed interest in one of our dogs as they are stars.

Hence this thread - not so much world domination but identifying a good combination of genes and wanting to keep the blend alive.

Hello,
right, if i understand correctly you associate coat colouring with temperament..
to my knowledge, and i have done a lot of reading on WoK, Scopus and Google scholar, there is no such a thing, this association has been a few times supposed but never proven (except for some particular colouring that have slight chances of throwing deaf/blind dogs or skin problems, with obvious repercussion on behaviour), but if you find some literature on the subject i will be happy to have a read.
good luck with your world domination project, i like it!

best
D

It is a complex mix - the way we humans behave towards animals is biased by their appearance as a form of feedback - I have read much about adult dogs maintaining puppy features and there is of course the canine smile.

I'm not saying that white dogs are bad vs black dogs are good. But it is interesting that small white fluffy dogs seem friendlier than small black fluffy ones.

Most of my interest in this case is based on knowing the dogs, their histories and that they both have features that are desired.

The links above are interesting reading, thank you for the links.

More thoughts are welcome.

If your dogs are crosses - how do you have verifiable information on their health ancestry? were all dogs health-tested/? whether they were, or weren't - this isn't indicative of the fact they didn't encounter health problems or even that the two dogs in question don't have mild to moderate dysplasia - the ONLY possible way to determine this is to Hip and Elbow score both dogs.

In addition, both dogs should be eye tested and the certificate valid at the time of breeding - and if you think you have Lab in there, then you MUST PRA test the dog, as this condition can cause blindness.

Rottweilers should be health tested for

• Aortic Stenosis
  
• Hip Dysplasia
  
• Elbow Dysplasia

So if your cross has Rottie in it - it should also be tested for Aortic Stenosis as well as PRA and an annual eye test.

All the above are imperative before considering breeding and far more important than any colour coat consideration.

As Rotts are not my breed, there may be more health tests I don't know about, hopefully the breed specialists on the site will be able to advise more.

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It's a strange experiment without any seeming logic to it - but whatever the whys and wherefores, you would get more support if both parents have ALL the recommended health tests done with acceptable results BEFORE breeding - believing there is not a problem in either dogs lines is not enough - it's as much cold hard facts as you can assimilate that are important - few dogs have fully health-tested ancestry - but what was acceptable then in ethical breeding differs considerably from what we now know.

If both dogs have had all these health tests and passed with flying colours then I apologise for 'teaching granny to suck eggs' - but you only allude to 'as far as you know' rather than factual evidence - even then, cold hard facts don't offer a 100% guarantee and health-testing should be coupled with good responsible advice to puppy owners in responsibly raising medium / large sized breeds to minimise the impact of any predisposed tendency to joint problems.

Eye problems, you can only do what you can do about eye conditions in the absence of DNA testing (which is available for PRA) - but at least you know at the time of breeding that both parents were 'healthy' in as far as it was possible to know.

Having got all that out of the way, I will give MY opinion on colour based on my knowledge of Labradors

I own 7 Labradors - 4 chocolate, 2 yellow and 1 black - I show regularly and have frequent contact with Labradors of all shapes, sizes and colourings including mismarked dogs.

The three colour genes are inextricably linked - i.e. a black dog (dominant gene) can, with the right pairing, produce black, yellow and chocolate offspring - similarly a yellow (recessive gene) with black pigment who carries chocolate can produce all three colours with the right pairings.

Two of my chocolates are dominant chocolate and mother and daughter - another chocolate carries yellow and is out of 'mum' and half sister to the eldest daughter - the grand-daughter (daughter of the eldest girl) is black carrying chocolate.

All 4 dogs have very similar tendencies and attitudes to life - has this got anything to do with colour? how can it? one of is black carrying chocolate, another is chocolate carrying yellow.

One of my yellows shares the same grandfather as my black girl - they both have the same - "I want it NOW" bark and the same blanket sucking habits - my yellow has black pigment, my black girl carries chocolate - anything to do with colour? How can it? but it might have something to do with them sharing the same grand-daddy.

My chocolate boy may or may not carry yellow - he's not been DNA tested - in isolation, he can never produce black puppies unless mated to a black dog (or yellow with black pigment) - but in his own right - he cannot.

He's laid back yet bouncy - incapable of keeping four feet on the ground when you most need him to - and very different from my other three chocolates and my black - anything to do with colour? NO probably more to do with his different breeding.

2 of my unrelated chocolates have excellent recall - 2 have good recall but don't don't like going back on the lead - anything to do with colour? No - the grandmother and youngest daughter don't like going back on the lead - my boy and the eldest daughter do.

One of my chocolates and my black think that showing affection means sitting as close as possible to you without physically being 'as one' with you - anything to do with colour? No - more to do with being mother and daughter.

The other mother and daughter (both chocolates) are aloof and like affection on their terms - anything to do with colour? nope - more to do with being closely related.

Why the differences? because even when you mate breed on breed - even when dogs have very similar tendencies and temperaments, you don't know which 'quirks', faults or qualities the progeny may inherit from either parent.

This applies very much moreso when mating different breeds.

My two yellows share very little common ancestry and are like chalk and cheese - my youngest yellow is still a puppy and more like my eldest chocolate than any of my other dogs - but with better recall.

6 of my dogs are very food driven, a very typical trait in Labradors - one of my chocolates - related to three of my other dogs can take or leave food - and if she doesn't want to eat, she won't - anything to do with colour? no - just an untypical 'quirk' of hers which is not shared by her mother, half sister, or daughter.

All 7 of my dogs have been with me since at least 8 weeks (count 0 for the three born here) - all been raised in the same manner - some share similar traits - others don't - all are pretty typical of their breed with the desire to have something in their mouth, their biddability and willingness and desire to please and retrieve - again - nothing to do with colour - but inherent traits of the Labrador.

It is easy to convince yourself that colour is related to certain behaviours and actions that dogs take, when in reality, far more of it is to do with shared ancestry and commonalities within the breed including desirable (and sometimes undesirable) traits.

Are any of my comments based on theoretical publications? no - my health remarks are based on factual knowledge of several years of extensive research - my colour comments are based on the knowledge of my own breed and living with 7 dogs covering all three colours (and combinations of recessive genes) thereof - coupled with more than half a lifetime of owning a number of different breeds and a fair time working with pretty much every pedigree and heinz 57 and variations inbetween - plus the frequent contact I have with other dogs of my own breed and other breeds on a regular basis.

If one of your dogs is a combination of more than one cross, the likelihood is, some progeny of such a cross with look like mum, some like dad, and others bearing little physical resemblance to either parent - more than likely predominantly blank with apparent 'mismarks' on some or all of the pups - and yet more unpredictable trait cross-breeds that you can only hope inherent their parents presumably friendly natures and characteristics.

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What you need to know before buying a Labrador puppy

Jolly interesting read - thank for taking the trouble to write these thoughts.

Can you comment on "hybrid vigor" vs breeding cousins?