LOL il'd walk 2 miles and more, i do with my dogs most nights, As for running truck that it would just about have me keal over rofl gasping for me bitter breath haha

I never thought I'd agree with anything Garry said but on this thread I have to!!!!
I have never met a breeder yet who will admit to making any money - especially 'reputable' ones!!!!!! I know of someone who had a litter of English Bull dogs - selling the pups out for £2000 each. Please dont get me wrong - they are beautiful, healthy, well bred puppies and if I could afford one then it is the sort of litter that I would be looking at. But please dont insult my intelligence by saying that it cost £14,000 to raise a good litter - I'm just not having it

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Haha well said

Jo p i am sorry if i have said the wrong thing on the odd ocasion but me and you have hit the nail on the head on this thread

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In my breed pups are £550 to £600 across the board, and the average I have bred (13 litters/74 pups) is just under 6 pups per litter.

To rear this litter, taking into account health tests for the dam, stud fee and rearing, but excluding time and wear and tear is approximately £1600 to £1800 (assuming you don't have any major complications with vet expenses, or use AI, Travel abroad for a stud, import a mate), or looking at it another way, the selling price of three pups.

That gives you on the face of it a profit of £1650 - £1800.

But this is not actually profit. If you just take into account that you will need to rear the bitch to around 3 years of age, and are likely to have 2 to four litters in her breeding life (at which point she becomes purely a pet, and possibly continue to be a show dog).

So £1800 x 3 litters is £5400 over 8 years of feeding showing etc is not a profit.

Now in order to have a breeding line you will eventually end up keeping 4 to 6 bitches even if being strict about keeping one in every generation with a good age gap.

The supposed profit allows you to do this.

If I simply wanted to show and not incur extra expense I would buy a good dog from a breeder and keep no more than two at a time, as with a show life of up to 10 years that would be enough for the fun of it.

Since selling my last puppy in March 2007 I have spent £2500 on my 5 dogs, this includes show entries for a limited number of shows, usually between 12 and 20 a year.

My next litter is planned for August, by which time I will have spent a lot more, so where's the profit in that?

The best a reputable breeder does is offset the cost of maintaining their breeding line.

Also a lot of that perceived profit can go out the window if you need to re-home a pup you have bred that you cannot accommodate at home, and need to kennel.

This extract From Economic advice notes by the Inland Revenue will explain the principles: HM Revenue & Customs: Business Economic Notes 14

"3. Breeding of pedigree livestock

The word `Pedigree' is used commonly to denote an animal of pure breeding, one that is registered with the appropriate breed society and inferring formal recognition that it has been bred from a line of registered animals.

Breeding arises from two principal and distinct motivations. Competitive or show breeding is concerned with establishing and/or developing and improving pedigree stock. Income from the sale of offspring or other associated activities is welcome but is neither the only or main motivation. On the other hand commercial pedigree breeding is simply a business venture and is concerned with pedigree only so far as it influences the marketability of offspring.

Pedigree breeders go to great lengths to preserve breed lines and generally improve or maintain standards of breed conformation. This attention to conformity at times necessitates the breeder to undertake what to some may be considered as distasteful or heartless. For example, docking of tails, culling of stock that do not meet breed standards
............

In considering the level of bona fide business expenditure relating to the establishment, a common problem revolves around the head count of productive animals. That is, animals which are actively used for breeding or showing, or are in any other way essential to and make an active contribution to the establishment.

A substantial number of breeders, especially in the dog world, become very attached to members of their stock and contrary to good business practise may continue to keep and maintain animals that have become non-productive. They, in essence, revert strictly to the status of `pet' rather than a business asset.

Ascertaining the true position appertaining to business stock or private pet, in the majority of cases will not be clear cut and where relevant will require careful consideration of the facts in each individual case.

Hobby or business

Most people involved with breeding, whether it be dogs, cats, pigeons and so on, take their activities seriously. This is not to say, however, that they also take the commercial side of breeding seriously or are motivated by a prime objective to make profits. As is often the case, the process of selective breeding can be a slow and costly exercise. The breeder will retain young that show promise. These will, in turn, depending on their eventual quality, be bred from, further enhancing the blood line and so the process will continue.

Inevitably, the creation of a blood line will result in a gradual increase in stock of animals and ensuing costs. Depending on the success of the breeder, demand should also increase, for use of stud animals or for young stock, thereby increasing the potential for profit.

It must be said, however, that this is not always a natural progression and even if success is eventually achieved, the time scale can be variable. A breeder may have to support a growing establishment, with no realistic prospect of enjoying an equally good inflow of receipts, for the foreseeable future........."

I never said in my post that a reputable breeders prime motivation to breed was the financial side - to me they wouldnt be a reputable breeder if it were. But I maintain what I say - it costs me to keep my dogs - should I stud them out just for the pleasure of owning them - I think not. Dog ownership is not a God given right - its an honour in my book - so why should dogs be used to pay for themselves - I just dont get it if thats the arguement for breeding them.

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No but a breeder cannot afford to maintain a bloodline without covering some of the costs over and above Pet ownership. To have the time to breed and care for a larger number of dogs may mean the breeder is on a fixed Income like a Pension, should only rich people and commercial breeders breed dogs

If I didn't breed I would only keep two dogs, as I couldn't afford to keep any more, but if I am to invest my time and energy into helping to maintain my breed and continue and establish my own bloodline that costs a lot.

In order to provide others with the quality fruits of this labour most breeders need to cover at least some of these costs in the sale price of a pup.

There have been less than 100 pups of my breed registered with the Kennel Club over the last two years, a third less than 15 years ago, and just 25% of the number bred in 1970. The main reasons for this is that fewer people who get seriously involved with the the breed are in a position to breed and take on the responsibility and the older breeders are retiring or dying. Of those who have bred a litter or two, once they reach the maximum they can look after they have to stop, and with a long lived breed this may mean that their bitches will be too old to breed from when numbers decrease.

Sadly during the same period that ethical people stopped breeding, feel unable to start etc, puppy farmers have been supplying commercial kennels with litters of pups and the workload for the breeds rescue has increased, and who pays for these dogs? The ever dwindling breed enthusiasts, the ethical breeders and exhibitors and pet owners.

I do not consider the amount received over and above the pure costs of the litter is any sort of profit, as this is re-invested in developng and maintaining the line.

My last litter cost me over £3000 due to travelling abroad to mate my bitch. I could easily have had no litter and had to absorb the £1750 cost of travel and stud fee.

At the moment I have one bitch of breeding age, a 12 month old and the others are Veterans.

It's all about the bigger picture.

I dont wish anyone to justify their reasons for breeding to me - apart from the person who I'll be buying my next pup from!!!! If you are happy with you're reasons and you're happy with the breeding programme you have going on then all power to your elbow so to speak - you sound to me to be a very ethical breeder for what its worth but I still believe people make money at it.

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People breed for different reasons ! and because i dont show does that make me any worse a breeder than sombody that does!? i dont think so! Like i have said before Not just my granddad but my dad have all owned and bred bull terriers at one time or another! so i would say whats the difference in buying a dog from me or a breeder that shows !? none thats what! are my dogs kc ? yes! would i take a puppy back if i had to ? yes ! I am sick and tired of people looking down there noses claiming the moural high ground and calling breeders like me a backyard breeder all because i dont choose to show ,when some of these so called show breeders are charging £2000 a pup out of a 8 pup litter ! weather you love showing or owning or both even, You wont be breeding for free will ya ,so please just cut the BULL SH*T!

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Oh yes people make money from breeding dogs.

Those who jump on the bandwagon of an overpriced, fashionable or popular breed that is easy to sell.

They save money on health testing, showing , and working their dogs.

Cut corners on rearing and breed younger and the maximum number of litters compared with an ethical breeder.

After all they are not worrying about needing quality time to spend with their dogs and carefully rearing and socialising a litter which may not be homed by 8 weeks, after all the only quality the buyer needs it the purchase price.

They will also not be available to offer advice and re-homing service for their new puppy owners.

These people will buy breeding stock cheaply or even offer an adult a home so less rearing costs, and will get rid of them once their breeding life is over.

Saddest of all the general public think all breeders are like this, (see a post on the Chihuahua thread) or worse still think all breeders are ethical, especially if pups are Kennel Club registered.

The result is that dogs and their unsuspecting owners suffer.

As on a previous post when asked if I am a breeder I can't simply proudly say yes, I have to qualify the answer explaining the kind of breeder I am.