Hi everyone ,

This is my first post so be gentle. My wife and I have a 3 year old Labrador called Obi. Here he is below.





We started talking about studding him as when we were in the park the other day we were approached by a couple with a Lab bitch the same size, colour etc. We didn't go any further with it but it got us thinking. He's a good build(very trim, a proper waist, muscular unlike alot of labs we see around) and has a good temperament and we think he would sire some great puppies. He's KC registered and we would quite happily get any checks that needed doing done as we would want to make sure he would be suitable before we went ahead with anything.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,
Ben

hi Ben, i wouldn't bother tbo let him carry on being what he is a loving pet.

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Personally, I wouldn't. Labradors are so popular and there are thousands of stud dogs around.

Do you show him or work him? It isn't worth studding a pet dog, because once they experience "it", they want it all the time and will go off on walks after bitches. Also, the bitch owner chooses the stud they want, so they should be choosing a dog that compliments their bitch and has done well in the show ring or in the field, and has good health test results.

I'd neuter him and just keep him as a family pet. He looks beautiful and he sounds like a great dog, don't spoil it by studding him.

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Hi Ben, and welcome to the forum, it's good that you're asking and trying to get the right information to base your decision on, so many just go ahead anyway.

I'm nicking this from a friend of mine (Di Stevens at Wylanbriar Labradors), who has bred Labradors for a number of years, including handling stud dogs, there's no such thing as 'studding' by the way

It's a bit graphic, but gives you a better idea of the role of a stud dog owner, in my eyes, it entails more responsibility than that of someone who breeds from their bitch. You need to know the ins and outs of breeding to a greater extent, and are expected to be a back up service for inexperienced bitch owners. You need to be prepared to perform quite intimate handling of both bitch and dog, internal examinations, 'cupping' to help the dog mate, etc, anyway, here's the essay.....

I have been half meaning to write this for ages but only got round to it today after another memorable half hour occured to add to the list Wink

Many folks ponder and decide they might stand their male at stud. Now I am not going to go into the why's and wherefores of if dogs are good enough. Nor the health issues. Nor any ethical or moral side of this. I am just going to tell it like it is giving some absolutely 101% true experiences i have had, with only one of the dogs I handle at stud, in the last 18 months since he started his stud career at 14 months old. Every mating is heavily supervised and handled, even a good bitch is held tight and every bitch is physcially supported even if she would stand under a hippos weight, nothing is left to chance

Nothing here is exaggerated, but its a side of it I bet most don't even slightly think of. i won't pretend no matings go well, easily, they do, but then by the number here you can tell it runs about 50/50. Could YOU handle this (as they say!)..................:

1) Deeds very first bitch should have been an easy straightforward old maid willing to be mated. Infact it was a bitch who had also never been mated before handled by owners who had never had a bitch mated. Deeds approached her, she growled. Deeds tried to mount her, she twisted out of their grasp and turned on him. Deeds decided maybe 'sex wasn't for him' and walked away to study the scenery.
What do you do?
What *I* did was bring out my experienced but retired old stud who LOVED a fiesty bitch and put him with her. She growled... up went his ears and a slow smile spread over his face. She lunged, he ducked and dived then jumped her (with my hand over her vulva so he couldn't penetrate). She knew she was beat, and being absolutely ready really, just pretending, stood like a rock, So I grabbed the old dog, dragged him quickly off, had them hold her head so she couldn't see, substituted the tentative young dog and shoved him in quick and she happily let him score his first touchdown Wink

What would you do if the dog said 'no thanks'? People rarely think of that.

2) We had a lady come, use him. Go home, her bitch missed and then in reading the breed record supplement, saw a litter born to Deeds on the same day her bitch should have whelped. She automatically assumed they had been mated the same day and THAT was why her bitch had missed. She threatened me with solicitors letters until I got a letter from the bitch owners with the litter to show she had whelped 4 days early AND from my vet to say that a healthy dog can EASILY ejaculate effectively twice in a day even if they HAD been mated on the same day. She still spread some very bad vibes amongst some people and demanded her stud fee back rather than use her free return, which I gave as I never wanted to see her again!

3) Then we had a seemingly nice lady with everything in order come, and then use the dodgiest most horrible email sites to advertise her puppies. I nearly bought the whole litter off her and sold them myself if only I had the money at the time. I KNOW some of those pups are in rubbish homes and it haunts me.

4) On a lighter note we have had one bitch, a tiny, tiny girl come. They came a LONG way. The dynamics of the mating was quite dramatic, there was a good four inches between his bits and hers. How do you overcome that. there are ways but if you left them to it, in a very short space of time both dog and bitch would just be exhausted and walk away from each other OR the bitches back would ache and she would start snapping. You need to know how to overcome this and manually handle the bitches vulva to the dog whilst shoving him down a hole in the garden to lower him - Is this how *you* imagined stud work?....

5) A bitch came, un 'Premate' bloodtested, on day 12. She stood but every time he penetrated her she screamed. I sent her away. She came back on day 14. same thing. Owner just said 'get her mated' I know she is ready. She did seem ready. So I washed up and gave her an internal and she had a small stricture across her vulva. Upon this being broken at the vets she returned and was mated, twice. Three weeks later she had a brown discharge and a massive infection. The owner rang screaming and screaming at me saying it was all my fault for giving her the internal and I gave her an infection and she would be suing me. I put the phone down. I let it calm down and nothing came of it but its not pleasant.

6) Had a litter born to a bitch who lived on a farm. She whelped three days early and was showing no sign of labour. She went into labour whilst he was out riding a horse and when he came back the farm terriers had killed and mutilated several of the newborns. He saved 4 but two were injured and did not grow properly and had to be destroyed. Its not all fluffy happy endings I promise you. laying in bed thinking of your dogs pups dying horribly is not pleasant.

7) A bitch was wonderful to mate, was owned by a lovely lady who had had all sorts of sadness in her life in the last couple of years and deserved a beautiful litter from her beautiful bitch. She rang me in terrible distress with her bitch whelping NINE days early. As each, hairless, puppy of nine was born, it fought to breathe and slowly died as its lungs were not developed. The sorrow and grief that lovely lady felt was excruiating to experience. I do not count that she had a litter, she will be coming back to use a free return if the vet and specialists she is consulting can find an answer.

Then there is the constant pleasure of hearing time and time again of the PROBLEM puppies your dog has sired. Be that non genetic health problems, behaviour problems, size problems (too big, too small, not quite handsome enough) and of course its ALL the sire, never the Dam!

9) The lovely lady who had a litter of 4, watched them constantly, gave up her whole life to bring this litter up wonderfully, singled out a boy to keep, the best of the bunch, then the bitch laid on him whilst she was in the shower for five minutes at over two weeks of age. Tragically normal, but its dealing with the grief and the dispair of people that is so hard.

10) Lastly - aggressive bitches. Fiesty bitches. Bitches who are saying 'yes' with the back end and 'no' with the front end. I have been seriously bitten twice in the last 18 months and bitch owners themselves a couple times more than that trying to hold their girls. Anyone who thinks mating all labrador bitches is a many splendored thing would watch in horror as the sweetest girl, even bloodtested ready to mate snarls and slings herself about like a crocodile, snapping and MEANING IT foaming at the mouth even. A dog would be SERIOUSLY damaged if left to it ESPECIALLY if the bitches stand for mating, THEN as their muscles kick in and they tie the dog, they turn on him when locked together. That is seriously dangerous.

Just today, lovely friendly waggy socialised bitch comes for mating. day 14, bloodtested ready as come a fair distance, big strong male handler. Trots happily round the garden, has a wee. Goes in the garage with her owner. out comes the dog, ***** his leg over her pee, dives in the garage. I shut the door and step in, and she stands and flips her tail as he licks her. He dances a few seconds then jumps on her and Mrs HYDE kicks in. She snarls, spins and closes teeth on Deeds, her collar flying over her head in the process. She chases him from one side of the garage to the other spitting fire and all out to close her teeth properly on him. I throw him out the door, and she calms and wags and relaxes.
Now, what do you do? Brand her unmateable? Brand her aggressive? She had never so much as stopped wagging her tail on the two occasions I had previously met her around many other dogs. She just did NOT want to be mated.
So, and this is what i mean by 'are you READY for this' she was muzzled, He armlocked her head, I with all my might held up her twisting, fighting back end and the dog - good dog that he is - ignored it all, climbed on quietly ignoring the snarls and screams of rage and mated her and turned himself. We would have ALL got badly bitten without a muzzle and I would NOT have done that had the blood test not been done NOR she flicked her tail over happily before he mounted her. It was rape pure and simple. BUT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN SOMETIMES BE PART OF IT.

So i hope some of the above might set a bit more thinking in motion about how people think its all natural and taking candy from a baby handling a dog at stud.

....Cos it isn't

Di

If you're serious, your first step is to contact the person who bred your boy, and talk to them about health testing. If they are good breeders they'll be able to advise you appropriately and help you, as well as inform you if there are any endorsements in place, which mean progeny from your boy can't be registered with the KC.

My own view on health tests is that hip scores and elbow grades are a must, as is the genetic test for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy) all one off tests, and could cost you up to about £400 depending on distances travelled. The other test I'd say is a must is the annual BVA current clear eye cert. Depending on the breeding of your boy, you may want to test for CNM (centro nuclear myopathy), some would also advise the test for EIC (exercise induced collapse), although the jury's still out on that particular condition. Stud dogs are capable of producing far more progeny than a bitch, as such it's important that you're only using the very best dog, they must have good health, and a very good temperament.

The next bit is the difficult bit, if you haven't proven your boy in any way, ie showing, working or competition, then you will not attract ethical breeders with quality bitches. You are only likely to attract people who've been turned down elsewhere, which aren't really the sort of people you'd want brining more Labrador pups into the world.

Hope that helps.

Sadly Labs are already ten a penny, better to have him neutered and keep him a a much loved pet and companion, which I am sure was the original purpose you brought him into your life

I can only repeat what others have said. Lab's are already very over bred and unless your boy has something to offer (show dog, agility, exceptional health test results, working) then I really wouldnt bother.

Just keep him as a much loved pet. Which is what he is.

Breeding brings with it risks of not only your boy being hurt during mating but he could well kill the bitch. Not just that but pups ending up in rescues and so on. Its really a big risk that would best be left well alone.

Having a good temperament is only part of a reason to breed, you have to take many other things into account. Breeding from a un-health tested dog is risky could you really pay out £200 for him to be put out and hip scored? And a further £100-£200 for his DNA health test too?

If its something you do want to go ahead with please please please health test.

Good luck with your boy and he is very handsome. I hope you enjoy the forum and find answers you are looking for.

Why? There's no need to neuter a dog, as long as they're well trained and you don't leave them unsupervised to roam.

Well put Di and Sleeping Lion

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Brilliant post and should make folks think seriously

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Thanks everyone for your comments I really appreciate, Sleeping Lion especially .

I've shown your replies to my wife and we've decided against it, we got him as a pet and we're gonna keep it that way. Who knew there was so much to it!

I have one more question if that's ok, should we now neuter him now he's not going to stud? If we didn't surely he'd get frustrated?(this is me putting myself in his shoes )

P.S Not that it makes a difference now but he's not been shown and doesn't work although he has at least one champion in his family tree from what I can see.

Thanks again,
Ben