I have just stumbled across this forum and felt the urge to reply. Vets and nurses are required to undertake a minimum amount of continued training every year so they are indeed kept up to date as you like to put it in all fields. True nutrition is a small part of the course however once in practice it is a major issue and one which is covered greatly. There is no need to have your animals on "the most expensive diet" as you put it as mine are not however there are good diets and bad diets just as there is good food and junk food for humans. I would like to clarify a few points;

Dry food is much better for teeth, it has not been proven to clean teeth and is not recommended in this manner. Dry food works the teeth and helps prevent the build up of tartar whereas wet food tends to cling and encourages bacteria build up. This is based upon animals in the wild who would eat the whole of the prey bones etc included which would work at the teeth.

70% of wet food is water.

The reason "supermarket" brands are not recommended is not because the vets get kick backs but because they simply use the cheapest of ingredients rather than sticking with a standard recipe. This means each tin/bag is different and can actually cause stomach upsets and other problems.

The majority of the price you pay in supermarkets is marked up profit from the supermarket. Everywhere has to make a profit or they would no longer be there.

If at the end of the day you do not want to switch foods ask your vet nurse to design a feeding plan around to foods you would like, most will be happy to do this as they want what's best for the animal.

Who provides the CPD training? Are these course sponsored or promoted by petfood manufacturers?

Actually you will find that this is the other way round dry food becomes impacted between teeth, whilst wet food, as part of normal feline cleaning is easily removed. Yes in the wild the bones of small animals help to keep teeth clean. It's funny how there has been a significant increase in canine and feline dental problems over the past 10 years (matches the growth of dry food)

And the negative of this is what? 70% of humans are water and 70% of dogs and cats natural prey is water. Requiring an animal to consume 70% more water because they are fed a dry food puts undue strain on kidneys (yes kidney disease is also increasing sharply pattern emerging here?)

The major brand that is supported by vets in the UK is actually worse than some supermarket brands (did you know that the pets at home own brand dog food is nearly identical to Burns and their Purely cat range is one of the market) Pets at Home, Sainsbury's, Tesco and Asda all have high meat content own brand foods.

This is what one independant analysis site says about Hills
Cons: Inadequate meat content, by-products, low quality grains, fat of unidentifiable origin, carcinogenic preservative.

This food receives a 1 star rating simply because there is nothing lower.

The first ingredient on the listed is a named meat product, but since this is chicken inclusive of its water content (about 80%) and this ingredient will weigh only about 20% of its wet weight once water is removed (as it must be to make kibble) it is unlikely that this is the true first ingredient in the food and would be more accurately placed much further down the ingredient list. This is the sole named meat product in the food.


The next three ingredients are all low quality grains. Corn is a problematic grain that is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems. We prefer not to see this used in dog food, yet it is the primary grain in this food. We prefer not to see this used in dog food. Sorghum is a carbohydrate source low in digestibility. We consider it primarily filler.

The fourth ingredient is wheat. The use of wheat is a significant negative: wheat is believed to be the number one cause of allergy problems in dog food. This is another ingredient we prefer not to see used at all in dog food.

The fifth ingredient in the food is by-products. It is impossible to ascertain the quality of by-products and these are usually products that are of such low quality as to be rejected for use in the human food chain.

My qualifications? Our companies animal nutritionist has had over 35 years in the pet food industry!

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Karen

www.kiskasiberians.co.uk - The home of Hypoallergenic Siberian Cats


www.rawfed.com - Information on Raw Feeding

These courses can sometimes be provided by pet food suppliers however the majority are independant for example the City and Guilds qualification. Obviously ones run by certain comapnies will be biased which is why these are avoided.

Please direct me to the research on this as I would be very interested in reading up on the studies that were done. There is no proof there has been a significant increase in dental disease directly related to dry food. It just so happens that there is more prevalence put on dental disease than there ever was before. We are also noticing a drastic increase in other pet illnesses would you like to attribute this to the dry pet food aswell? If there is a study that says different again then please direct me to this as I am always willing to increase my knowledge.

The negative? You're paying for water. How does this put a strain on kidneys? Yes, they're not getting as much water from food but you'll find that animals fed a dry diet will drink more which means they're consuming as much water just from a different source. Again diagnostic procedures are much more advanced nowadays which is more to do with why these diseases are on the increase. Again please direct me to the study so I may increase my knowledge.

No I was unaware of this please show me all the statistics. Yes they may have a high meat content but is the same source in every bag as opposed to the cheapest protein source on market that day?

That's great what the site says about Hills I don't use it. However there are plenty of other independent studies that say the exact opposite so take these with a pinch of salt. Even so called independant studies can be biased.

And do you by chance happen to work for a pet food company which may make you biased? Your company's nutritionist has had 35 years experience, surely that's their qualifications not yours. And please what courses have the undertaken as i'm always looking for more to undertake myself.

And on that note if you really cared about what was best for the animals you would have a better attitude rather than I know best everything else is wrong. If it is wrong then educate people, more people are likely to listen when you put it across nicely rather than looking down your nose at everyone else.

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www.saikousiameseandorientals.com

"Love a lot, trust just a few and always paddle your own canoe"
"Who is the greater fool - the fool themself or those that follow them"

Thanks Saikou

__________________
Karen

www.kiskasiberians.co.uk - The home of Hypoallergenic Siberian Cats


www.rawfed.com - Information on Raw Feeding

Nikki,

Wow, I'm a bit baffled by your post and confused on a number of points you've made here. Clearly you think that dry food is fine to feed cats - so let's start with that. Actually, let's start with what would be the cat's natural diet in the wild, as I think we would all agree that this is what the cat has been designed to eat: mice, bugs, baby rabbits, birds, etc. See what they all have in common? Well, for one thing they're around 70% water! Also, they're mostly meat, some organ meat, and some bones, too. Plus some fur, feathers, but that's often left - it's probably too chewy.

Right, so the next logical step is to think.. what can I feed my cat that's as close as possible to that natural diet that they're designed to eat? My first response would be that I would copy that diet and feed my cat a diet of meat, organ meat and bones (and yes, some mice with some fur on). Many people won't have the time or inclination to do this for a pet, which is fair enough.

So, let's think.. what is the next best thing then? I know, cooked meats! But cooking reduces taurine and vitamines in the meat, so I'd then need to add this back in. Too much hassle for regular people to do, definitely!

Right, so the next best thing again? Commercial, wet food - which is basically cooked meat with added taurine, vitamins, minerals etc. Convenient, and contains all that a cat would need (in theory). Now, to ensure the cat gets enough nutrients I'd want to make sure the wet food contains as much meat as possible, because remember right at the start when they were eating mice and birds, meat was the main ingredient. So, I'd like it to be the same for this. Also, I'd want to make sure the food doesn't contain anything else - for some reason, companies like to make money (!) and tend to put less meat in and replace it with cheap fillers such as wheat or corn. Now have a think... how much wheat or corn or any other vegetable do you think there is in a mouse? That's right, close to none! So, rule out any wet food with anything other than meat and added vitamines in it. Apart from being boiled, and having had vitamines and such added back to it, this food is still not horribly far removed from the natural diet we started out with.

Now, assuming you're not happy with feeding wet food for some reason. The only remaining option is then to feed dry food. Dry food consists of meat (so far, so good) but also a lot of fillers such as grains. This is added because it's cheap (see making money above) but also because dry food can't be made without them. Grains are typically classified as carbohydrates and are composed mostly of starch. The main function of carbohydrates in the process of manufacturing dry pet foods is to provide structural integrity to the biscuits. The starch works like a "cement" that holds the biscuits together, preventing crumbling throughout the manufacturing process. So, dry food is highly processed, cooked at very high temperatures, added grains/carbohydrates, close to zero water, low meat protein biscuits with added vitamines and minerals. Now, think back to the natural diet of meat, organs and bone - not very similar is it?

I think so many people these days just take dry food as a given and don't even consider that there may be a better option out there. The sheer amount of marketing telling us that dry food is best for - well, best for everything if you believe the commercials! - is so overwhelming that any dissenting thought seems to go out the window.

I would like everyone with a cat to be aware of the different types of cat food I've described above, and then from that make a decision about what they would like to feed their cat. Some people, like myself, will have the time and inclination to feed a natural diet, while others will choose to feed dry food or a mix of dry and wet. People need to know what they're doing and need to be fully informed - by the vet - of the benefits/drawbacks of each diet. At the moment all I get from my vet is pushing of dry food with no real choice or discussion around options.

I'm tired of vets touting dry food as the end all and be all of food, and it's time we get some factual information on the merits of each type, be it raw, cooked, wet or dry. If that could be achieved, we'd have better informed owners and (hopefully!) more cats on a diet more appropriate for them.

/steps off the soapbox!

Now, to respond to some of your statements:
I'm confused about this statement. You're saying that dry food doesn't clean teeth, but you're saying dry food works the teeth and this working of the teeth helps prevent build up of tartar (isn't that what cleaning the teeth does, prevent tartar?). Also, how can this be based upon wild animals - they don't eat dry food, but they do eat bones. Chewing bones does clean teeth and prevent tartar buildup, hence why you should give your cat some raw bones to chew on a few times a week. There doesn't seem to be any logical link between chewing a tiny biscuit and chewing a whole bone.

Yes, if you think back to the natural diet above, this is great and ensures the cat doesn't get dehydrated. You know, the meat you buy for dinner also contains 70% water, shocking isn't it, you're paying for water!

I wish there was some research on this. It is my strong suspicion that the majority of stomach upsets in cats are caused not by the meats or the variation of meats, but by the various additives and fillers found in most commercial cat foods. It makes more sense to me that a cat would react negatively to something they're not designed to eat, than react to meat which they are designed to eat.

And.. how is this not also true for the vet that sells 'prescription' diets?

I did ask my vet for advice on what to feed my cat, and was told to feed Hills dry as this was the best diet he knew of. I tried suggesting other options such as the natural diet, but he was not even up for a discussion around it. Perhaps I was just unlucky and got a bad vet?

To reiterate my point above - I think vets have a huge responsibility in educating pet owners and promoting species appropriate food for cats. At the moment, sadly they're failing at this.

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Great post Coraline it should be made a sticky

__________________
Karen

www.kiskasiberians.co.uk - The home of Hypoallergenic Siberian Cats


www.rawfed.com - Information on Raw Feeding

I primarily give my 2 wet food (as I can control the amount they are eating) and they have a small portion of dry biscuits to munch through in between meals. I have recently wanted to improve their diet (as I was shocked at the meat content in the big brand sachets) and I also want them to enjoy the food they have. I have started to replace one of their daily meals with one portion of proper meat or fish. I recently found that Tesco have started doing a finest range of 80g tins of just chicken breast or tuna (amongst other flavours). Sheba also do a similar 80g tin. They really enjoy it and as well as being easy to prepare a tin a day is within my budget (about 58p per tin).

I think cats should have a varied diet. Yes, they will tolerate dried food all the time, however I know how happy my cats are when they smell the chicken or tuna I am about to give them and that makes me a happy slave

I've only had my cat (adult) 6 months and my vet didn't discuss food with me. A friend's vet refers to dry food as "b*llocks" though and won't stock it in his surgery! (For the reasons in the post above). However I have heard of a lot of vets being positive about dry food.

I don't want to give my cat dried food but we all have to make our own choices and I can understand why others like it. My cat can't tolerate ordinary wet cat foods, even the 60% meat ones. They all give him the runs. So I give him integra sensitive wet food which doesn't have the 60% muscle meat but is made from a single source of animal only. (The other wet foods have organs etc of more than one animal in them.) The manufacturers say the single source is what makes it tolerable for those cats with sensitive stomachs. It also has 4% rice so has some grain but not too much. He doesn't leak poo on my bed now which I am (very) happy about. I also give him cooked chicken and fish too so he gets 100% muscle meat from there. He will not entertain eating raw food ("what? do you think I'm some kind of animal?") so even though raw would be better I'm not prepared to have that battle.

It's pretty expensive feeding him this stuff (200g tin of integra =80p) and if I ended up really skint at some point I think I would have to give him dry food given that his stomach can cope with that. You do have to do what you can afford. I hope I don't have to but you never know what is round the corner.