Hello,

I’m looking into the possibility of feeding my cats a home diet. My vet can order in Feline Vitamin-Mineral Premix from Medi-Cal.* I’m wondering if it would be possible for me to formulate a home diet in which the animal protein comes from bivalve mollusks (e.g. scallops, clams, oysters, mussels, etc.) and possibly also crustaceans (e.g. shrimp and prawns).** I want to do this primarily for reasons of farmed-animal welfare and environmental safety.***

More specifically, my question is:

(1) Is it safe for cats to eat bivalves and / or crustaceans as part of an appropriately formulated home diet?

(2) Is it safe for cats to eat an appropriately formulated home diet, where the SOLE SOURCE of animal protein comes from bivalves and / or crustaceans?

Thanks!
Howard



*Ingredients: Vitamin A (Retinyl-Palmitate; 10,400IU/g), Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol; 2100 IU/g), Vitamin E (Alpha-Tocopheryl Acetate; 130 IU/g), Vitamin K (Menadione Sodium Bisulphate Cplex; 2.2mg/g), Vitamin B1 (Thiamine Hydrochloride; 13mg/g), Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin 13mg/g) Vitamin B3 (Niacin; 200mg/g) Vitamin B5 (D-Calcium Pantothenate; 25mg/g), Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine Hydrochloride 10mg/g), Folic Acid (1.2mg/g), Biotin (0.15 mg/g), Copper (Copper Sulphate; 5mg/g), Iron (Ferrous Sulphate; 100 mg/g), Zinc Oxide (130 mg/g), Cobalt (Cobalt Carbonate 0.36mg/g), Selenium (Sodium Selenite; 0.13 mg/g), Iodine (Potassium Iodide; 0.9 mg/g), Taurine (500 mg/g). The recipes I know of also call for Calcium Carbonate and Potassium Citrate, the latter of which I know I can also get from my vet.

**In addition to the Vitamin-Mineral Premix, Calcium Carbonate, and Potassium Citrate, the only non-animal protein / animal fat ingredients the Medi-Cal recommended diets call for are (1) rice and (2) corn oil. So the diet I’m thinking of would really just be: VM Premix, Calc. Carb, Potas. Cit., rice, corn oil, and bivalves / crustaceans.

*** I’m vegan myself, and I’ve looked into vegan diets for cats – e.g. Amicat, Evolution, Vegecat - but, especially since one of my cats is a diabetic in remission and I’ve heard stuff about the general importance of keeping cat diets low in carbs, I’d be very concerned about trying to feed my cats a vegan diet. I think that there’s an excellent chance that bivalves, like plants, aren’t capable of having subjective experiences and thus can’t be harmed in a literal, morally relevant way, and I suspect that this may also be true of crustaceans. I am, however, quite confident that fish do have subjective experiences – see e.g. Sneddon et al “Do Fish Have Nociceptors Evidence for the Evolution of a Vertebrate Sensory System” (2003) and Chandroo et al “Can fish suffer?: perspectives on sentience, pain, fear and stress” (2004). I know that there are environmental issues about fishing and farming marine animals, but I live in Canada and I’m pretty confident that I can get farmed bivalves (and probably crustaceans) that get around these problems.

Sorry I can't help with nutrition question but I am glad that you understand that cats cannot have a vegetarian or vegan diet.
Is this dry food you are considering? I would seriously advise against feeding solely dry whatever the content. Cats are not good with drinking generally and can suffer from kidney problems when dry fed.

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How we behave toward cats here below determines our status in heaven. - Robert A. Heinlein
http://www.lambchopsiamese.webs.com

Aren't you concern with the levels of toxins found in bivalves? I do feed my cat some clams, mussels and shrimps as a treat but I don't do very often for fear of mercury and other heavy metal intoxication.

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Hi lymorelynn,

Thanks so much for your response. No - the diet I'm contemplating would definitely be 100% wet, not dry. I am currently feeding my cats a 100% wet food diet because I understand that this is far best for them (see e.g. Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health). I did not even know that it was possible for people to do dry home diets.*


Hi TatiLie,

Thanks so much for the warning, I will be now. But I don't know why I should be afraid of Scallops in particular. The FDA / EPA list bivalves as a "low mercury fish," and scallops were hands-down the marine animal with the lowest mercury concentrations, mean value = 0.003 (Mercury Levels in Commercial Fish and Shellfish. Clams and shrimp were also pretty low, both mean values of 0.009, although I couldn't find a value for mussels). That value looks so low in comparison to the values for the other marine animals that I wonder if it's any more dangerous than things that aren't marine animals (e.g. chicken, pork, etc.). But I'll try to check that out.



Thanks again!
Howard





*I certainly agree that, if the current veterinary science on this is correct (e.g. Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health, and of course I DO trust that it is correct), then high carb diets are bad for cats, and it seems very difficult to feed a vegan diet to cats that are sufficiently low in carbs. But I worry that you put the point a bit strongly when you say "cats cannot have a vegetarian or vegan diet"; I'm not sure that's any more true than "cats cannot have any of the many commercially available diets that are ridiculously high in carbs and derive almost all their nutrients from plants, with a smattering of meat byproducts thrown in". I know of no evidence that the appropriately formulated, commercially available vegan diets (Amicat, Evolution, Vegecat) are any more inadequate than many of the commercially available non-vegan catfoods. (It is true that nutritional analysis showed minor deficiencies in these foods as formulated in 2004 - Gray et al "Nutritional adequacy of two vegan diets for cats", but the manufacturers claim to have altered their production methods so that this is no longer the case. I know, I know, it's not like I take their word for it either, but I'd think someone would need to repeat a Gray et al style study to be sure.) The other major relevant study found no significant nutritional deficiencies in cats fed vegan diets (Wakefield et al "Evaluation of cats fed vegetarian diets and attitudes of their caregivers 2006" - all cats had serum cobalamin concentrations in range and 14/17 had taurine concentrations in range, with the 3 who didn't above critical, one borderline normal, and all regularly fed received scraps and treats (tisk tisk).)

Howard: I'm very interested in this thread because I feed my cat - as a lunchtime treat - about 3-4 mussels most days.....he absolutely loves them - now I'm worried about the harm they might be causing him. As the FDA list does not specify the mercury content of mussels I will have to do further research.

Bumping up as I am interested in the OP's question.

I dont believe you can feed a cat vegetarian/vegan food to allow them to thrive. Cats are not veggie, nor vegan, and I do not believe we should put our own personal beliefs into the diet of our cats.

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Hi thecat'smeow,

Thanks; if you can do please let me know what you find out. My casual googling has turned up some encouraging signs about low levels of mercury in mussels; for instance Health Canada lists them as having "very low levels of mercury" along with scallops, clams, oysters, and shrimp (Mercury in Fish - Questions and Answers). That said I wasn't able to quickly find an average value for mercury concentrations in mussels; a lot seemed to depend on region (see e.g. ftp://ftp.sccwrp.org/pub/download/DO...eport/ar14.pdf). You might see some studies of mussels in heavily polluted areas that report very high mercury values, but from what I've briefly seen those don't look representative of mussels in general. You should definitely look into this, but as long as you're not getting your mussels from a badly polluted area, chances might be great that they're quite low in mercury.

Incidentally I did a quick comparison of the mercury levels in scallops, clams, & shrimp to those in chicken as a baseline. According to the FDA & EPA (Mercury Levels in Commercial Fish and Shellfish), mean mercury concentrations in scallops is 0.003 parts per million, and mean mercury concentrations in shrimp and clams is 0.009 parts per million. According to the only study I could find on mercury concentrations in chicken (Kambamanoli-Dimou et al, "Methylmercury Concentrations in Broiler's Meat and Hen's Meat and Eggs 1989), hen's liver and some eggs had mean mercury concentrations of 6.1 and 4.3 parts per BILLION respectively, which translates into 0.0061 and 0.0043 parts per million. So based on what I have, mercury is less of a concern in scallops than some chicken products, and it's only slightly more of a concern in shrimp and clams.



Hi gloworm*mushroom,

For the reasons I included in my footnote in my response to lymorelynn, I agree with you that you can't can feed a cat vegetarian/vegan food and expect the best health results, for the exact same reason that I don't think that you can feed a cat a standard cheap brand of dry food that derives most of its nutrients from plant protein (and is low in moisture to boot) and expect the best health results. But as I said, I don't know of any solid evidence that it's any *worse* to feed cats the sorts of appropriately formulated vegan diets that are commercially available (e.g. Amicat, Evolution, Vegecat) which would include all the kinds of supplements that come standard in the Feline Vitamin-Mineral Premix that my vet recommends for any home diet, even one made with more traditional animal proteins like chicken. A lot of people seem to have the ignorant impression that feline vegan diets are just lentils or something without any of the nutrients that a cat needs. These diets aren't like that at all - please read up on them if you're interested:

http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...vegancats&All=
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...vegancats&All=
Ami Vegan Cat Food from VeggiePets.com : , UK Online and Mail Order. Ami Vegan Cat Food UK.
Vegan Cats Shopping Cart

As far as I can tell, the primary difference between these and even high-class non-vegan catfoods is the amount of carbs per quality protein; it's not like the pork by-products and chicken fat in the m/d could cut it nutritionally without the same sorts of additives as are in the vegan catfoods.

Honestly, I don't know why you think that you need to warn me about the nutritional problems associated with vegan catfoods. As I said, I'm on this forum to try to find out about feeding bivalves and crustaceans to my cats BECAUSE I BELIEVE VEGAN CAT FOODS ARE NOT THE BEST FOR CATS, especially cats like my diabetic boy who needs super low carbs. As far as I know, MY OWN POSTS contain links to all the main scientific evidence concerning the nutritional problems with vegan catfoods: possible insufficient supplementation as demonstrated by Gray et al (2004) (though manufacturers claim to have corrected for that) and evidence about the importance of low carbs and high quality of protein sources (see e.g. Feeding Your Cat: Know the Basics of Feline Nutrition :: healthy cat diet, making cat food, litter box, cat food, cat nutrition, cat urinary tract health). Do you have anything to add to that? (I mean that honestly: I'd really like to know about it if you do.)

I think that your claim that we shouldn't "put our own personal beliefs into the diet of our cats" makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. We have no choice in the matter but to formulate our cats' diets on the basis of our beliefs. Example: I believe that a vegan diet would not be most healthy for my cats, therefore I will try to feed them a bivalve and/or crustacean diet instead. Another example: I believed that my cat suffering from renal failure would benefit from a low-protein renal diet, so I fed him one. Another example: I take it that you won't kill your young human relatives (if you have any) and feed them to your cats. Looks like you're putting your own personal beliefs into the diet of your cat that (a) your cat would not enjoy the taste of your relatives, or (b) a home diet made from your relatives would not be best for your cat, or (c) even if there were a nutritional advantage associated with eating your relatives, it would be wrong to kill your relatives to give your cat this advantage. Your attempt to get me to see my views about moral reasons against harming farmed animals as merely "my personal beliefs" where you get to see your views about moral reasons against killing your relatives as something quite different from "personal beliefs" that aren't to be "put into things" is simply an absurd gimmick. It's true that my views are less widely shared, but I hardly see how that matters. If we lived in a society where it was common to kill newborn humans and feed them to cats would it then be wrong to "put our personal beliefs" about the moral reasons against killing infants into the diets of our cats by, say, feeding them bivalves rather than neonates? Were abolitionists wrong to "put their personal beliefs into" their acts by working on the underground railroad? Of course not. It doesn't matter if a view is widely shared or accepted by a minority - it all depends on whether the view is correct. You can try to talk people out of their moral convictions, but it's silly to ask them not to act on their moral convictions.

You know it strikes me as PARTICULARLY silly to ask me to dismiss my views about moral reasons against harming farmed animals in this context. Why do you want people to feed cats non-vegan diets? So the cats will be better off? But why ON EARTH should we take feline welfare seriously but not the welfare of pigs who are castrated, de-toothed, and tail-docked without anesthetic, and who are often improperly stunned and scalded alive, or cows who suffer from amnoia and respiratory problems in cramped feedlots? What makes cats so special that it's just fine for us to contribute to the torture of other creatures who are just as sensitive and intelligent as cats are, simply to move cats from "getting by" to "thriving"? (Of course I think that with non-conscious bivalves we don't have to choose - we can have the thriving without the harm). It's true that we're each of us specially obligated to our cats. But if the only way for a parent of a human child to get the child a diet on which she could thrive rather than just get by was to contribute to the torturing and killing of stranger children, I think we'd agree that this would be wrong, and that she should make do with the diet on which her child could just get by.

If you don't want to feed a cat meat, you don't have to have a cat.

Torturing children has nothing to do with it, I dong know why you ate going to these emotive arguments... Cats need meat, that is all.

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Hi thecat'smeow,

What I don't understand is why you feel like you have to keep emphasizing the health benefits of animal protein in a cat's diet. I know about this, and that's why I am trying to find a good way to feed my cats a diet with animal protein. Are you even reading my posts? The title was "Scallops, Clams, Oysters in a Home Diet?" not "Vegan Home Diet?"

I should point out that I came to this forum in good faith to ask about what people knew about the safety of feeding cats a bivalve / crustacean diet. I did not come here to fight about the vegan diets which I'm not feeding my cats (although I'm happy to oblige if that's really what you feel like doing* - but your failure to read what I'm saying suggests that you don't). I mentioned the fact that I was concerned about farmed animal welfare so people wouldn't just post back "I don't know about bivalves - why don't you just feed them chicken?" In retrospect I think that it was a mistake to mention the fact that I was vegan but didn't want to feed my cats a vegan diet because I didn't think it would be best for them and that there's no problem with feeding bivalves and probably crustaceans (so long as they're sustainably farmed). Apparently some people saw the terms 'vegan' 'cat' and 'diet' and just freaked out without bothering to see what I was actually saying.





*Actually torturing children has everything to do with it. If you care about your cats like children, but buy factory farmed animal products, you're essentially paying for things just like your cats to be tortured for their nutritional benefit. Since you're having trouble understanding what I'm saying let me try to make it simpler in the following way. Would you have any objection to killing Bugsy and Tilly (or Lambchop and Flapjack) and feeding them to Glowworm and Mushroom? How about keeping Bugsy & Tilly in conditions so cramped they can't even turn around, letting them develop painful respiratory problems from sitting in their own feces and urine, letting them develop painful joint problems from being overweight and having too little exercise, neutering them without anesthetic, and improperly stunning them at slaughter, so they have their throats slit and possibly even get scalded to death while they're fully conscious? (This is what happens to factory farmed pigs, cows, chickens, etc., see e.g. http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-u...y-farming.aspx). It's true that Bugsy and Tilly are your bunnies and you're specially obligated not to do this stuff to them. But say you died in an accident without leaving a will. Would there be any objection to the rest of us doing this?

I think that cats fed cheap store-bought diets are a lot better off than they would be were they dead, which is what would happen if they weren't adopted. Ditto for cats kept vegan. So I don't think people feeding their cats cheap store-bought diets or properly formulated vegan diets should just get rid of their cats.

I don't know why you characterize what I was saying as emotional. How is it emotional? Is it just that you don't want to listen to what I'm saying and calling it "emotional" is a convenient way of trying to dismiss it without engaging with its substance?

I was responding purely to your response of 'But I worry that you put the point a bit strongly when you say "cats cannot have a vegetarian or vegan diet"'

I do not think the point is strong, I think it is entirely true.

However, I am glad you disagree and are wanting to feed your cats meat, and I am interested in the opinions on your original question.

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