Fair point! Might be worth an email to Dierenfeld to see whether she can help with the Vit A content of one-day chicks.

Edit: From 1936 but explored Vit A in chicks of varying ages: http://jn.nutrition.org/content/11/2/119.full.pdf

Also found this from 2009, which has some info on ca/p content of one day chicks: http://www.eaza.net/activities/Docum...t%20Book08.pdf

Review and comparing of analysis of animal products
Joeke Nijboer, , P. Wolf, & M. Derks
Some summarizing data considering the composition of animal products fed to zoo
animals can be found in literature. However, these are not complete. Much information
about the composition of animal products can also be found in anecdotal literature.
This presentation is divided into two parts. The first part summarizes both anecdotal
literature and official literature on analyses of animal products. According to the
authors the animal products fed can be divided into insects, mammals, chicken and
other bird products, reptiles and sea products. Most of the components are
characterized by low amounts of dry matter compared to dry food, high amounts of
protein and, depending on the products, high amounts of fat. Data show also that there
is a great variation in macro and micro minerals among these products. For example
crickets fed in zoos are characterized by an imbalanced Ca:P ratio with a relatively low
amount of calcium and a high amount of phosphorus (per kg dry matter: Ca 200 mg, P
900 mg). This is contrary to data obtained from the natural environment in Nigeria
which shows low amounts of minerals, however more balanced. In the second part of
this presentation analyses are presented from animal products fed in Rotterdam Zoo.
If possible, analysis were performed on dry matter, crude fat, crude fibre, crude ash,
Ca, P, Mg, Na, K, Cu, Zn, Fe and Mn. Analyses were performed according the
standard analysis methods used at the Institute für Tierernährung of the Stiftung
Tierärzliche Hochschule Hannover, Germany. Ten whole fish samples commonly used
at the zoo were analysed. Samples were taken from regular fed fish like capelin,
mackerel and herring but also from mussels, krill, mysis and oysters. In the literature
limited data are available on the composition of one-day-chicken. In the Netherlands
laying hens are fed according the nutrition guidelines for chickens. Data showed that
there is some difference in the analyses of the samples of one-day-chickens from four
different breeders. For example dry matter varies from 22,9 – 24,9%, in the dm crude
protein 67,3 - 73,6 %, crude fat 16,8 - 26,2 ash 7,2 - 7,7% and Ca 1,4 - 1,7%. A
greater variation can be found between the analysis of the different samples young
and adult mice and rats. Samples were collected from French, Dutch, German and
Tsjech breeders. No information could be obtained from the breeders about the diet
which has been fed. Dm varies in 2 batches of baby rats from 20,1 - 21,4%, in the DM
cp 62,9 - 67,1, cf 18,1 - 23,7%, ash 8,2 - 10,9%, In baby mice dm 20,1 - 21,4%, cp
67,4 – 70,0%, ash 9,8 - 10,1%. In four batches of adult mice the dm varies from 37,5 -
42,9%, cp 49,7 - 60,2%, cf 24,6 - 35,8% and ash 8,6 - 11,4%. When calculating a diet
it must be considered that the analyses of rats, mice and one-day-chicken can vary
considerably.

Thank you, I've been trawling through a few articles/papers and some of them make interesting reading.

This 1973 report is similar to the 1936 one:

'Vitamin A Economy of the Developing Chick Embryo and
of the Freshly Hatched Chick'

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00593-0312.pdf

Seems to have more up to date units, although I'll need to convert from nmol to IU/kg

I believe I have managed to calculate the amount of Vit A in day old chicks:

From "Vitamin A Economy of the Developing Chick Embryo and of the Freshly Hatched Chick"
the amount of Vit A in a day old chick is no more than 135 nmol.

135 nmol is equal to 0.135 micromole which is equal to 128.9 IU for one chick = 322.25 IU for 100g of as fed chick

Converting this to a DM basis equals 1258.80

The FEDIAF recommended amount of Vit A for an adult cat is 333 IU (max 40,000) - the 1258.80 doesn't seem too excessive.

Thanks Hobbs. I have had another look through the values and it looks like you're on the right lines. The FEDIAF one lists the nutritional maximum and the other PDF from NRC seems to be just recommended amounts. I guess that's where the discrepancies lie.

As long as I am around one of these figures I will be happy. It looks like it's mainly the vit k values that are wildly different but as cats synthesize enough of this, if i have read right, it's not really an issue!

thanks again for your help

I know it has been a while that you were looking for info on one day chicks but by some chance I came across the following values:

....................................... Ca .....................Ph ....................... Ca ................... Ph
Mouse, adult (27g) ..............229.5mg ...........165mg.....=> pro 100g..... 850mg....611mg
Mouse, juvenile (1.5g) ..............4.56mg ..........4.48mg .....=> pro 100g .....304mg ....298.6mg
Mouse, juveniel(4g) ..............16.3mg ........... 15mg .....=> pro 100g ....407.5mg ....375mg
Rat, adult (330g).............. 2323mg..........1689.6mg ....=> pro 100g .... 704mg .... 512mg
One day chick (40g) .............140.4mg ............104mg.....=> pro 100g ....351mg .... 260mg

I don't have any further info - i.e. size of the group from which values are drawn etc

from: Small Animal Clinical Nutrition: Amazon.co.uk: Michael S. Hand, Craig D. Thatcher, Rebecca L. Remillard, Philip Roudebush, Lon D. Lewis: Books (I *think* this book has some affinity with Hills. It is given to vet students in Germany when they finish their doctorates.

Yes, this is the issue I've had when compiling my spreadsheet - varying recommended amounts (and nutrient contents) from different sources. e.g. I've found it relatively easy to satisy FEDIAF with regards to copper intake but the same diet only produces 50% of the NRC's recommendations. In fact I fail to see how the latter can be achieved with easily available and affordable raw food, without significantly affecting the amounts of other, more essential [assumption], nutrients, or by feeding my cats dog size portions. Don't get me started on manganese - even harder to satisfy.

Not entirely sure that FEDIAF values are nutritional maximums, I assumed they were recommended amounts for maintenance, growth or reproduction.

What I've learned to accept is how any calculation has to be a ballpark guide, given the wide variety of data produced and as I haven't taken into account how one nutrient might interact with/affect another.
So an accurate detailed analysis (as my s/sheet was meant to be) of a complete raw diet looks impossible to achieve with my layman's knowledge and will therefore be more of a guide than I had originally hoped. Hey-ho!

Thank you for this information - yet another source with values that differ! I'm ok with the mineral content of chicks but still need individual proteins, fats and some vitamins.

Hi guys.
I think what you are doing is fantabulous, if a little mind-boggling!

Way back when.....I used to show ferrets and one of their main foods was dead day old chicks. We all used to feed them and in large amounts, until a new study came out, saying they really weren't suitable as the main food for 'weasels'. So, we started to restrict them to a couple a week.

I can't remember what was causing the problem with them - maybe because the chick hadn't grown to it's full potential - but the side effect of feeding the large amounts that we did to our ferrets, was that they got 'thick necks'.

Also, I've no idea if this would affect cats in the same way and would cats be fed 'ddoc' in such large quantities?

I've no idea if the above is relevant, but thought I'd mention it just in case.

__________________
The Thread Killer.
Post and be damned!

I'm fascinated by this as well having also tried to get a nutrient spreadsheet going but boggled my brain! In the end my right brain decided (phew) to stick with the one I made that I can just log what each cat eats each day and so shows over a week / month what degree of variety they are getting and just to satisfy my left brain I have it linked to an expenditure spreadsheet so I know what each cat eats in £'s.

The ferrets effect is very interesting. I started feeding DOCs about a year ago, the cats loved them instantly and with them being just over a year old and still eating like horses, it really helped money wise but by about November I was having niggly feelings about the DOCs. Impossible to find organic raised chicks and I guess there was a background worry particularly about growth hormones which I think are used a lot in the poultry industry in Europe, anyways I realised that they were making up about 50% of their diet, I was already thinking that they were low in calcium but the Ca:P was ok brain boggle starts again so when I asked peoples thoughts on another forum someone pointed out that they are low in Magnesium, no one mentioned Vit A which I think they are very high in (?) but anyways I followed gut feeling and started to wean them off somewhat, specially as I feed a lot of quail (also low in magnesium). I still feed them about one a day for maybe half the week.

The curious thing is that the two real chick fiends were considerably porkier than the other two cats and the boy has a thick neck!