Thank you both for the replies! I'm not sure what my friend fed, as far as I'm aware it was a 'proper' place as she used to feed her dog from the same distributor and gather advise from them too.
In terms of supplements I have no idea what she used. I've asked her and so I'm just waiting for a reply. What vitamins are important for meat that has no supplements added. I would be buying from Raw to Go as its the cheapest I can find and it's literally down the motorway from me. Very handy if I want to take the car and stock up. What would you recommend I buy? Or would a mixture of everything suffice for the first few weeks for now? I don't want to change them over fully until I've sourced the supplements I'll need and have a good supply.
I guess you can say I've taken the plunge as today I've bought a separate freezer which is being stored in my shed - I also bought some diced ox heart and pigs liver from Morrisons on the way home as it was dirt cheap! How do you guys make up the meals? I was thinking about separating the meat and weighing a couple of varieties together to make their meals - then popping them in freezable jiffy bags ready to be defrosted. But I'm not sure I can split the meat without defrosting it all - in which case I won't be able to freeze again, will I? Also, when is best to add the supplements?
I also bought some frozen rodents and the cats just batted in around the garden and then lost interest. So my royal python got seconds Sorry to bombard you with questions!
Thanks in advance x

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I don't have any experience of raw feeding dogs but I know that cats nuturtional requirements are different than that of dogs so it would be a good idea to stick to sources that relate specifically to cats. Links referred to at the beginning of this guide are good sources to give you a good understanding/grounding.

Great that you were able to source the liver and heart. Do be careful of how much liver you feed. Remember the 80/10/10 ratio. To much offal can lead to runny tummies.

As far as what to get. Maybe try bit of different meats and see how they go with each type. Don't be too eager and try too much too soon. Try one type of meat first see how they get on with it, get them used to it a bit, see who likes it, tolerates etc then let them try something else. Some people try chicken first, then maybe go on to lamb and rabbit to begin with.

I'm not sure if I misunderstood you but I personally wouldn't mix different types of meat in one meal at this stage. You need to go slowly with this.

If you are buying from Raw to Go, you are probably going to need extra taurine. She sells taurine powder. You mix this in water then add to the meat. She also sells frozen heart. She is very helpful so would advise you as well.

Hobbs is a better person to answer your question in regards to supplements but personally at a minimum, I would add salmon oil, taurine and brewers yeast powder. Can't say whether this is right or wrong, just what I would do. Some people don't add anything, some more. This where reading about raw is important so you can decide what you think is right for you and your cats and why.

If you defrost the mince in the fridge, re freezing is ok. When I have bought prepared minces in the past, I usually did not fully defrost them before bagging. You still weigh and bag with it a bit frozen. I used to add supplements as I made up a meal.

As far as bagging them, I use to weigh out in portions worth and label and bag it. I only keep one type of meat per bag and label them. Some people do it differently - maybe weigh out a day's worth etc.

Hobbs - please correct me if I have given out erroneous info!!!

Thank you again! I understand the different nutritional needs for canines and felines and so I'm just trying to educate myself more in the field of raw.
When I said making up bags for meals using different things, I meant I would use the same type of meat (chicken/lamb/turkey/rabbit etc) but perhaps mix chunks with the mince and offal (thanks for providing the correct ratio!) to offer different textures. Do you think this is a good idea? If not I will stick to, just chunks or just mince.
Its good to know that I can refreeze as I was worried I'd have to take a hammer to the frozen meat Do you add your supplements before freezing or after freezing? Just wondering if the supplements are still effective after being frozen and defrosted. I would probably buy the taurine powder straight from Raw to Go as it makes sense if I'm placing a meat order, so today I am going to try to source the other supplements. I have read into salmon oil and brewers yeast a little (is it easy to find this without the garlic?).
I've also just read somewhere that you shouldn't switch them over to a raw diet if you are pregnant, due to the higher risk of toxoplasmosis... Is this true? Surely if you're careful with litter and faeces the risk is no higher?

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Hi,

In answer to some of your questions, I have taken excerpts of Hobbs' excellent guide to raw feeding which are the first few pages of this thread:

In relation to the ratio and supplements:

[I]Feeding a balanced raw diet

How much to feed? They say about 2-3% of the cat's weight as a rough guide to daily amounts. Unless they are kittens in which case anything goes (within reason).

The ratio
To feed a balanced diet you need to feed your cat approx these ratios:
80% muscle meat, including intestines, gizzards, tongue; of which up to 15% heart;
10% bone;
5% liver;
5% offal (kidney, lung, brain etc).

The need for calcium
Calcium is not a dietary supplement for cats but a necessity. So the 10% or thereabouts are not negotiable. You will need to get the correct balance of calcium in their food to prevent problems later as well as to prevent runny tums and calcium deficiencies (not enough calcium) or constipation (too many bones). If you cannot feed enough bones, then see whether you can get ground ones or ground eggshells or calcium supplements (such as bonemeal, calcium phosphate etc). More on that later.

Bones
Most people seems to think the opposite - that bones are fine when they are boiled but no no no, they splinter more easily when boiled and become a hazard. Bones must be fed raw. Try and feed meat and bones that a cat might find in the wild, such as:
* quail
* woodpigeon
* cornish hen or poussin
* rabbit ribs, legs or even a whole rabbit
* chicken necks
* chicken wings
* chicken ribs

Big, weight-bearing bones will be too big for cats, so a cat will struggle if not find it impossible to do much with lamb or beef bones.

There are also the animals that are typically termed whole prey in raw feeding circles, which include
* day old chicks
* pheasant chicks
* mice
* small rats
* hamsters
* guinea pigs

These can be bought online or in store from good reptile shops.


Eggs
A lot of raw feeders also feed a raw egg once or twice a week. Raw egg is a great source of Biotin as well as Vit A and E and helps to keep the coat in great condition.

It is often said that you should only feed the egg yolk raw, not the egg white as that contains a protein called Avidin which inhibits the synthesis of biotin. However, according to the latest thinking that thinking is no longer correct as the egg yolk contains enough biotin to counteract the biotin-binding effects of avidin. So, you no longer need to leave the egg white or you no longer need to lightly boil it.

Amino acids
Although cats can synthesise some of amino acids, there are some essential ones that cats cannot make themselves and which therefore need to be provided with their diet. These include:

Taurine
Taurine is an essential amino acid that needs to be provided in their diet. Unlike other animals, cats cannot synthesise taurine from food themselves. There are various natural raw sources of taurine, including heart, dark meats, or muscle meats, such as tongue. As said, dark meat contains more taurine than white meat, so choose leg meat over breast meat if you can. Alternatively, you can get a taurine powder that just needs to be dissolved and added to the food.

If you mince meat, then you will need to feed more taurine as processing, such as mincing, lessens the taurine content by providing bacteria with more surface area. Impact of processing on the taurine cont... [Int J Food Sci Nutr. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

Please note that you will frequently read that freezing has a detrimental effect on taurine. That appears to be a raw feeding myth as to my knowledge there are no studies that have directly explored the effect of freezing on taurine. For an indirect source of info that freezing doesn't alter taurine content: Effect of processing on fate of dietary [14C]taurine ... [J Nutr. 1990] - PubMed - NCBI

If you add soluble fibre to your cat's diet (such as rice or other grains) then you will also need to add a little more taurine : Dietary Rice Bran Decreases Plasma and Whole-Blood Taurine in Cats

Read up on the importance of taurine in any cat’s diet, including raw: Taurine in Cats and http://web.archive.org/web/200801280...urine_chmr.htm


Arginine
Another essential amino acid in cats is Arginine, which is necessary for normal protein synthesis and ammonia detoxification. A complete lack of arginine in a cat's diet can have immediate consequences, such as ammonia intoxication.

Meat sources of arginine are fish, poultry, eggs, pork and beef. For more info on arginine sources: http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/larginine-high.php

For more info: Arginine: An Essential Amino Acid for the Cat
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/109/8/1368.pdf


Vitamins
There are some vitamins that a cat can synthesise for itself (e.g. Vit C) but a cat needs to regularly ingest all vitamins in its food.

Three of these essential vitamins are A, D, and E. Because these are fat soluble and are therefore stored in the body and are not secreted out, it is important to read up on those as it is possible to overfeed on them.

Vit A - essentially the reason why you feed the 5% liver. Cats cannot synthesise Vit A out of its precursor beta-carotine, so it is essential that a bio-available source of Vit A is fed. Vitamin A is need for healthy sight, growth and immune function. Cats require 100iu per kg of body weight per day.
For more information on the nutritional needs of cats, see FEWill's PF post: Nutritional Needs for Cats

In terms of the ratios and how it works in various prepared minces see:

[I]Pre-prepared minces

The easiest way into raw feeding would be to get pre-prepared raw minces.

Darlings Real Dog Food - Working dog minces

Darlings (Real, Raw, Organic Dog Food Supplier - Home) do an introductory offer of 3kg of minces for £15 including delivery. They updated their website, and now have some info about their cat minces: http://www.darlingsrealcatfood.com/.

They do rabbit now (with lamb) and chicken wings from free range chickens. Darlings minces are made to the 80/10/10 ratio but are quite expensive as they only use free-range, local meat. Quite expensive at £6 per kilo but it comes to less than £1 for an average sized cat per day. Minimum order is 15 kg now I believe. So you need to have freezer space.

They also do some fab snacks now, including some dried venison! Worth a try.

For a review of Darlings by pf member BSH see: Review: Darlings Minces for Cats (well, for Working Dogs really!)


DAF minces & Raw To Go

DAF (Durham Animal Feed) minces are cheaper than Darlings and coarser. They do a variety of minces, including beef, chicken, lamb, rabbit venison. Please note that the ingredients in these minces vary according to season and what they get in from suppliers.

Overall, there is some uncertainty imo as to whether these minces contain meat/bone/liver/other offal in the rightish proportions. It appears that the rabbit and venison minces come closest to the required ratio. The chicken minces contain hardly any offal, and the beef one contains too much bone. It also appears that their minces are low on liver. If you are interested in feeding those minces then please phone up DAF and confirm ratios and ingredients of the minces you are interested in feeding. I have talked to them numerous times now over the past few months and the answers tend to differ.

They also don't include enough heart so would you need to add heart or taurine powder. You would have to anyhow considering that this is a minced product.




I'm not sure about adding extra chunks and offal, ( Hobbs will be a better person to advice on that or indeed raw to go themselves to see exactly what is added in each of their meats. But you would probably want to add heart or taurine.

In terms of offering different textures, as I said in my other post and from other sources I have read from including Hobbs' guide, I would say go slowly. If your cats take to this straight away, great. Otherwise stick to the minces and slowly acclimatise them to it. Then you can start adding chunks in their diet. Some cats do not take to chunks or bones that easily.

I no longer buy prepared minces but when I did, I added my supplements when I was giving the meal. You can get debittered brewers yeast in Holland and Barrett or other health food store same with salmon oil. Perhahps somene else will come along to address the toxoplasmosis issues.

AS far as hygiene issues with raw meat, I take exactly the same precautions in preparation as I do in preparing meat for my own consumption.

Hope this helps.

Once again, I can't thank you all enough for your invaluable information and advice. It's great to have a friendly place to come and learn and ask questions. I have just placed my first order with Raw to Go, I'm excited to begin to slow transition onto a purely raw diet. I have also purchased a book to refer to and expand my knowledge.
I will let you know how I get on and I'm sure I'll be asking more question during this learning curve.

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Just received my Raw to Go order so I'm just waiting for it to defrost enough so I can batch it up into meals. The cats were very interested in the box with all the smells:






I'm currently defrosting a chicken wing and a couple of necks in the sink just to see if they're interested and when I turned my back Oscar was up on the worktop trying to steal it! Hopefully he'll enjoy it later then.

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Haha, they are in for a feast! Lucky cats.

Out of interest, did you order minces as well? Or just chunky food that you are waiting to portion up?

I ordered quite abit of mince - it goes a long way but I think next time I'll stick to more chunks. Oscar ate a chicken neck but the others haven't really had a good go. They've got some mince with heart warning in the sink to try for tea. I think I'll probably get some chunks from the supermarkets to add some chew to their diets.

Edit - so non of them have touched their dinner think this is going to be slow progress. I'm going to leave it down for half an hour and then add in their normal food. How long did it take some of you to make the full switch over to raw?

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I have just ordered a sample pack of 2kg, to see if Cookie like it. She has had some raw chicken, lamb and beef this week so I am sure she will take to this, all depends on the texture I guess.

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Both the dogs are now raw fed so am going to try getting the cats on to a 100% raw diet (currently they just have the odd chicken wing).

I don't know why I'm more nervous with the cats though. I usually get a fantastic array of offal/meat/carcasses from the butcher every week. Whilst the lamb/pork bones will be too much for the cats I will try & mince up the smller bones (if I have any), chicken carcasses & the meat/offal to start off with (with the view to gradually getting them on to chunkier meat) & mix in some of their current wet food to swap them over.

I will also start saving egg shells to add to the minces that don't contain bone but am also worried about the taurine content, should I buy some to add to the minces? If so where do I get this from & how much should I add?

PS Apologies if this has been answered time & time again - I'm tired tonight & cant find the answers!!