just a quick question......why 'poor' munchkins?????

If, as you say, the Oriental is a "cross breed". Then what does that make, the further cross, Oriental x Bengal to produce the Serengeti?

I am all for new breeds who have a market and who bring something new to the party, however I fail to be convinced by the Serengeti.
As I said in my previous post I find it difficult to find proper researched Serengeti programs, all I find is people who are breeding first crosses and calling them Serengetis, which is very similar to the Jugs, Labradoodles, Dollies etc in the dog world.
A breed first developed in the 1995, 14 years ago, should have progressed further than F1s if there was serious interest.

I feel they are jumping on the Bengal bandwagon, and there is enough dodgy stuff going on in that breed, without adding the Oriental into the mix.

__________________
Lauren

Don't Shop Adopt! - Stop Puppy Farming

Battery Farmed Dogs Campaign (Puppy Farming)

__________________

www.saikousiameseandorientals.com

"Love a lot, trust just a few and always paddle your own canoe"
"Who is the greater fool - the fool themself or those that follow them"

I think because the munchkin is a genetic deformity caused by a gene mutation, munchkins are basically achondroplastic dwarves, if you google "achondroplastic dwarf" you will find many of the problems that these people suffer from due to their inherited condition. The cats will have similar problems.

__________________
Lauren

Don't Shop Adopt! - Stop Puppy Farming

Battery Farmed Dogs Campaign (Puppy Farming)

i think sphynxes are cruel too.

To say that Serengeti is a cross breed is imo a polite compliment Savvy,and a bit contradictory to be offended at the very word "cross breed" when you seem to advocate them,as you say all new breeds come from somewhere and maybe you should remember what you've postedMoggys are all well and good but not at the cost of what potentially could be a great breed

You may like to check back over previous posts where the SE breeders have been accused of selling mongrels! I wasn't being deliberately offensive about the oriental, merely pointing out that it too was a mongrel once and that it was bred purely for a different eye and coat colour to the siamese. How many breeders are breeding pure orientals in the UK? or anywhere for that matter, or do you all still cross back into Siamese? If we are going to talk about crossbreeds and varients, does this not merely make the oriental a siamese variant? We still cross back to other breeds because the SE is not fully developed but surely the oriental gene pool is large enough that you shouldn't need siamese bloodlines. Again, a legitimate point and question, not mud slinging.
I did not join this thread to throw insults as some of the oriental breeders have done towards SE breeders, I joined it to point out some facts and ask that you research things more thoroughly before you cast aspertions. The SE is a product of several different breeds if you take the time to look. The bengal and oriental are just the first stage of development. I'm not sure what your reasons for disliking us are but whatever they are, manners cost nothing. There are unscrupulous people in all breeds including your own but I'm sure you wouldn't want to be tarnished with that brush. You obviously have little background information on the SE and therefore making derogatory comments as have previously been posted are totally uneccessary and unfounded.
I would also like to point out that I bought my first SE from an established and respected oriental breeder as have most other UK SE breeders.
Karen Sausman of Kingsmark has spent several painstating years trying to develop the SE and is fully behind everyone coming into the programme. Her ideal was to breed a cat resembling a serval, without using wild cats to do it, not to jump on the bengal bandwaggon. She and many other SE breeders already have success in bengals. We, as all breeds, have codes which are there to clarify at which stage of development our cats are. We haven't yet reached SBT anywhere because there is still a way to go. If Lauren, as you say, you are all for new breeds, why does the SE offend you so much? is it purely because it uses your own breed as part of it's foundation?

__________________

www.saikousiameseandorientals.com

"Love a lot, trust just a few and always paddle your own canoe"
"Who is the greater fool - the fool themself or those that follow them"

Tbh Savvy,we are all entitled to our opinions and i have mine,my manners are just fine thankyou(ya see i was brought up respectfully) for asking,if you look i posted a smile,you have it would seem joined up to do exactly what your accusing myself of,you have only posted on this thread,which up until your post was done and dusted, and we get that you know about moggies For the Ori gene pool being large enough welll i guess thats a whole other thread,some would say yes sure dive in and knock yourself out,others would say no,not really happy about that,i mean lets call a spade a spade here Savvy,it's not always about the cat whatever breed or cross breed it is,and sometimes with certain folk..as you well know i'm sure,it's pretty obvious where their at,and for anyone with a genuine passion and love of a breed,it's a raw and passionate subject and will always be,and i will say their were imo other ways for you to state your points of views,we are or rather i am not a know everything Kinda gal,though nearly i like to pretend,but you have stated the obvious and says nothing to change at least my mind,wish you well on your quest though(Again with the smile)

Kingsmark do have Serengetis and have been breeding them since 1995. I am not saying the concept was poor only the results are less than stunning
I applaud her commitment to the "breed" , but I feel they haven't taken off because they essentially look like a poor Bengal with large ears and those taking up breeding them are usually Oriental breeders and/or Bengal breeders, breeding first gen crosses and selling the kittens as Serengetis. You even say yourself your first Serengeti was from an Oriental breeder.
First/second gen crosses do not make a breed in my opinion. Once you have a breed then it is up to breeders whether they want to outcross, but it seems to me the breed hasn't got past first base in this country, and I doubt whether it is doing particularly well in the States either; the vast majority of the Kingsmark breeding stock have her own prefix.
You appear very committed too, to the breed, I wish you well, I hope you do manage to have a good program, to make a small Serval lookalike in a few years time, without the need for Serval blood which was the original intention.
As Saikou says it needs a lot of gens and careful selection and breeding with a goal in mind to make a breed, not calling a first/second gen cross, a new breed as many seem to be doing.

__________________
Lauren

Don't Shop Adopt! - Stop Puppy Farming

Battery Farmed Dogs Campaign (Puppy Farming)