early spay /neuter, does anyone currently do this ? - Page 3

Acacia86 · #21 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

You have complete control over what you charge. Sensible pricing has to start somewhere. Bengals are a prime example, I am sure that all started with well they charge that so I will etc. They are currently really suffering from that early must have designer label being sold for a premium. Surely its better to resolve that issue whilst the breed is in its infancy than wait until it gets so out of hand no one has contol over it.

Decent pet owners are also just as likely to be attracted to sensibly priced kittens. As I said BYBs are not interested in jumping through hoops no matter how much you charge.

I agree! So if breeders make sure there are ''hoops'' to get through then BYB's will be less inclined to go through them!

Well said.

Clare Ferris · #22 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acacia86

You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right.

BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact?

This is where keeping in contact with the new owners come in..........

Never mind taking bits out of babies at such a young age to make sure they don't breed, but how about trusting your instincts about potential new owners? And vetting to such a position that BYB's and irresponsible owners would not bother with?

Its all well and good but I am sure if you go and speak to other breeders who have been fooled into selling a pet that then went onto breed they would tell you it is not that easy. I respect your views but it is the only sure way of it never happening. There has been no evidence to say it is of detriment to the cat and I am sure thousands of cats have been done already if not millions throughout the world. You can never 100% trust everyone to do the right thing even if they act as though they will in the beginning once they have that cat it is a different story. It may only happen once in a breeders lifetime but thats one to many times imo. As for keeping intouch with people not that easy, if all you have is a phone number or address they could easily move or fall of the radar. Life just aint that simple

for the record I dont make it easy for owners to buy a kitten and you can create as many hoops as you want but if someone is determined then I dont think it will matter, yes most would still be put of but not all I am sure. As for sensible pricing Im not about to start selling cheap kittens incomparison to everyone else. The price will fall in its own time when the breed is more established I am sure. I could argue that by early neutering then I am preventing the lure of backyard breeders. If we all breed responsibly and are careful what we sell then hopefully we wont have alot of byb's developing. I think with bengals the attraction was the look of a wild cat that so many found attractive hence a good selling point, just like with your common breeds, I know for a fact there are alot of byb's of persians out there and they are one of these cheapest, most long standing breeds there is. Sphynx and pixie bobs are very expensive £1000+ and thats just for a pet double atleast for a breeding animal yet I cannot say I have seen many byb of these breeds. Pet owners also need to be educated on what to look for in a responsible breeder so they dont buy from byb which I hope one day will put them out of business. Hence why I have so much info on this on my website for people who are keen to know what to look for. I believe this is a very important part of the problem also.

Saikou · #23 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 02:45 AM

Bengals may have had their 'wild cat' hook, but I have seen siberians marketed as being hypo allergenic -not a hook used by all admittedly - and aren't some breeders charging for sending out hair samples

Sokokes in this country are probably in smaller number in this country but are being sold for more normal kitten prices, so its not all new breeds exploiting that fact. In fact one breeder over here who was in the process of importing them from a breeder in Europe had that transaction halted when the seller found out the UK breeder had the intention of charging £2000 per kitten!!

To my mind, it doesn't make sense to charge an above average price for a breed where the enthusiasts wish to promote that breed's popularity and increase a small gene pool. Surely logic would say if a breed was more expense than profit then that would put off any byb - which come in registered format just as much as unregistered - as there is nothing in it for them, plus it makes those kittens more accessible to genuine pet homes. Surely any new breed wants to ensure they are attracting true lovers of the breed and not just those who think they can make a quick buck from that breed.

I personally think anything done to a kitten/cat where there is an element of risk, has to be done for true benefit of that kitten/cat and not to control a market for the breeders benefit or to try and prevent something happening to that kitten/cat that can be controlled in other ways ie not making them financially attractive to bybs or by the breeder putting more effort into finding the right homes for their babies.

I think you asked for peoples opinions on the subject having already made your mind up on the subject. Just in the same way that you would not consider changing your views, neither will those of opposite opinion

kozykatz · #24 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 02:05 PM

I would simply not be comfortable now if my kittens left without being neutered - I'd feel I had not fulfilled all my responsibilities as a breeder. Nothing to do with not trusting the owners - of course I wouldn't sell to someone I wasn't happy with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acacia86

You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right.

BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact?

This is where keeping in contact with the new owners come in..........

Never mind taking bits out of babies at such a young age to make sure they don't breed, but how about trusting your instincts about potential new owners? And vetting to such a position that BYB's and irresponsible owners would not bother with?

Yestin · #25 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 02:10 PM

I have recently rescued a 2 yr old Irish Soft Coated Wheaton. I want to have him nuetered, but I was told his fur would possibly change if I did. He is so soft & silky, I'd hate to have it change.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening. My vet isn't familiar with the breed, so no sense asking him.
Thanks in advance for yr reply.

Saikou · #26 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 04:13 PM

I think thats a question for the dog section, but a friend has a cocker and she read the same about them, that their coats change after being neutered and goes woollier.

Clare Ferris · #27 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

Bengals may have had their 'wild cat' hook, but I have seen siberians marketed as being hypo allergenic -not a hook used by all admittedly - and aren't some breeders charging for sending out hair samples

Sokokes in this country are probably in smaller number in this country but are being sold for more normal kitten prices, so its not all new breeds exploiting that fact. In fact one breeder over here who was in the process of importing them from a breeder in Europe had that transaction halted when the seller found out the UK breeder had the intention of charging £2000 per kitten!!

To my mind, it doesn't make sense to charge an above average price for a breed where the enthusiasts wish to promote that breed's popularity and increase a small gene pool. Surely logic would say if a breed was more expense than profit then that would put off any byb - which come in registered format just as much as unregistered - as there is nothing in it for them, plus it makes those kittens more accessible to genuine pet homes. Surely any new breed wants to ensure they are attracting true lovers of the breed and not just those who think they can make a quick buck from that breed.

I personally think anything done to a kitten/cat where there is an element of risk, has to be done for true benefit of that kitten/cat and not to control a market for the breeders benefit or to try and prevent something happening to that kitten/cat that can be controlled in other ways ie not making them financially attractive to bybs or by the breeder putting more effort into finding the right homes for their babies.

I think you asked for peoples opinions on the subject having already made your mind up on the subject. Just in the same way that you would not consider changing your views, neither will those of opposite opinion

Whatever you charge you will get byb and the fact is no one can tell in advance what someone will later do with the kitten if they are altered already then they dont get much choice. I would imagine most pet owners would be happy for it to be done as it is one less thing for them to worry about. Breed prices vary wheter it be dog, cats or whatever, at the moment what I charge is the norm for this breed I dont think it is expensive really and there are breeders with more common breeds charging more then average for whatever reason. Anyway cost is not really what I wanted to talk about. I posted the thread to get the opinion of others who have experience doing it and their experience of it good and bad before I truely make my mind up.

Yes I was leaning more towards doing it anyway but if I came across alot of problems that occured later in the cat then ofcourse I would change my mind.
Siberians are marketed as being hypoallergenic because they are! The breeder where 3 of my cats came from has a husband with allergies. They used to breed persians until he could nolonger cope with the cats being around she switched to sibbys a few years back for this reason and they must have about 15 of them now and he has never had a problem with them. It does not guarantee everyone will be fine as different lines produce different responses and it depends on the severity of the persons allergies but it is believed sibbys have less of the Fel D1 allergic protein in their saliva which is why so many people can tolerate them. It is also one of the reasons I got into breeding them because I thought it would be nice for someone who wants a cat but has never been able to have one before through allergies to finally get the oppertunity to have a pet.

I think breeders charge for allergy sittings and sometimes fur samples but this generally comes of the cost of a kitten. I am sure if a well known breeder did every allery sitting for nothing it would prove very costly and time consuming the allergy sitting takes a couple of hours and when you are busy to have alot of people coming round and no guarantess they are buying a kitten then thats why they do it, to cover the time it takes. It is normally only a small fee and I would not have a problem paying it really.

I think a breeders responsibility is to do the best by their cats and if someone believes in the benefits of early neutering then aslong as its not harming the cats it really is their choice I suppose. I have alot more research to do before I decide fully and I wont have a litter ready for that till the summer anyway so plenty of time.

Clare Ferris · #28 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yestin

I have recently rescued a 2 yr old Irish Soft Coated Wheaton. I want to have him nuetered, but I was told his fur would possibly change if I did. He is so soft & silky, I'd hate to have it change.
Has anyone ever heard of this happening. My vet isn't familiar with the breed, so no sense asking him.
Thanks in advance for yr reply.

I work in a vets and so many people ask will it change them or their coats. I have never heard of it changing the coat but I do know of some breeders who show who have said it does, not with your breed I think it was Irish setters. Is your dog a show dog? To be honest you have to weigh up the pros and cons and if all you are worried about is his coat texture changing then think about the risks with an entire dog. From a medical point of view entire male dogs are at risk of testicular tumours mainly benign but the treatment is catration anyway which in an old dog is risky. Perineal hernias are also common due to the hormone testosterone. This is where the muscles around the anus weaken due to testosterone and rupture so the dog cant go to the toilet properly and faeces collect in a pocket around the anus insted of being passed. It is a very difficult operation to repair and because of the nerve endings in this area you can risk them becoming incontinent. Certain skin tumours I think can be linked to entire dogs also. Plus they are more likely to fight and be aggressive especially towards other dogs, stray to find a mate and risk getting ran over etc.

I personnally believe in preventative healthcare like neutering. It is also less risky to put a younger dog under anaesthetic than an older one so if you do it best to before they get too old. Only draw back with it is they can put weight on which is easily resolved by feeding a low fat food and not overfeeding it and plenty of exercise. Both my dogs are done girl and boy and I had no problems but they are short coated crosses so could not tell you if there coats changed much, but even if it had it does not matter when you are talking about their overall health which I think is more important.

Saikou · #29 (**permalink**) 10-01-2010, 12:00 AM

My understanding is not all siberians are hypoallergenic as the levels of Fel d 1 differ per line. Its still a marketing hook, as is the allergy samples/sittings. All of which just give profitering bybs more to be interested in. How very nobel of siberian breeders to breed just to benefit those with allergies.

Its pointless going round the houses about bybs, the fact is they are attracted to those breeds who are seemingly being bred at a profit, that they can exploit. Yes you can early neuter, but that doesn't stop their interest in that breed, which I would have thought would be the primary aim of any breed group. An individual breeders aim should also be to vet very carefully any new home and ensure that they have complete trust in those kitten buyers.

As I said before anything that's done to a cat/kitten, especially where there is risk involved whatever the level of that risk, should be done for the sole benefit of that cat/kitten alone and not for the benefit of the breeder.

Clare Ferris · #30 (**permalink**) 10-01-2010, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

My understanding is not all siberians are hypoallergenic as the levels of Fel d 1 differ per line. Its still a marketing hook, as is the allergy samples/sittings. All of which just give profitering bybs more to be interested in. How very nobel of siberian breeders to breed just to benefit those with allergies.

Its pointless going round the houses about bybs, the fact is they are attracted to those breeds who are seemingly being bred at a profit, that they can exploit. Yes you can early neuter, but that doesn't stop their interest in that breed, which I would have thought would be the primary aim of any breed group. An individual breeders aim should also be to vet very carefully any new home and ensure that they have complete trust in those kitten buyers.

As I said before anything that's done to a cat/kitten, especially where there is risk involved whatever the level of that risk, should be done for the sole benefit of that cat/kitten alone and not for the benefit of the breeder.

I did say it depends on the lines thats why the breeders advise sittings with the parents first and then the kitten or can send fur samples if this is not possible but it gives people hope. A back yard breeder could see any pedigree cat as a way of making profit if they have very little expenses i.e vaccs, blood/health testing parents, good food, registration etc. They would just leave it upto mum to feed them then wean then on cheap chrap and then ship them of at 6-8weeks having paid out next to nothing. I do also think they look at the popularity of the breed also as this means more sales.
Theres no point going with an expensive breed if they cant sell them.

Sorry but I detect a hint of sarcasim in your post, correct me if im wrong. I am not sure what you are trying to imply with regards to siberian breeders advertising them as hypoallergenic and breeding so that people with allergies can also enjoy having a much loved pet. I am sure if you had allergies and loved cats it would break your heart not being able to have one, would you not hold some hope in the fact that maybe there was a breed you may be able to tolerate. That is certainly the message I get from allergy sufferers anyway.

Well I do think vetting is very important and with all the best intentions in the world we cant read minds. I am sure it does give breeders piece of mind but they could also say it is of benefit to that cat as they will be neutered anyway and it is preventing a life of misery and abuse should that nice, vetted owner turn out to be something else, i.e byb.

Can I ask have you ever had any situations occur when a kitten you sold as a pet was bred from without you knowing or any new owners fall of the radar when it came to checking up re neutering etc. Can you always be 100% sure when you sell a kitten they are genuine?

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