early spay /neuter, does anyone currently do this ? - Page 2

Clare Ferris · #11 (**permalink**) 07-01-2010, 10:08 PM

Well everyone has there opinions which is appreciated. If they are too small and underweight then I would not do it and I am still wary about the girls being done but there has been alot of success in America with it in rescue. If it helps contol the over population problem then that has to be a good thing, but thats a whole different debate I suppose. For me the reason I want to do it is because I am terrified of a kitten getting into the wrong hands and being bred from indiscriminately. I would always wonder until proof of neutering came back to me, this way If she/he is done before rehoming then I can be 100% sure this will never happen and hopefully put off people with other intentions from getting one of my kittens. Anyone can put on an act and imply they want the kitten to be a loving indoor pet and then go against this later on and even with a contract in place there is not much you can do about it.

An example would be of something I read on a chinchilla breeders website re byb's. She sold a very small girl with a heart problem that she explained to the new owner, at a greatly reduced rate because they only wanted a loving pet and not to breed. She then found out that this poor little girl was running free in this womans home with an entire silver persian who was mating freely with all the cats including her. She is tiny and chinnys being finer boned than persians means there is potential there for huge kittens from a very small girl who could possibly have difficulties and end up needing a caesarian or worse dying from giving birth especially with the heart problem aswell. When she contacted this person She was told to basically get lost and it was none of her business what she did with the cat as it was now hers and there is nothing she could do about it. This person now practices neutering before re homing and never has to worry about her little babies being abused, she could not believe how she was decieved by this person as she seemed so genuine so it can happen to anyone of us breeders. If I can stop this happening with little risk to my babies then im all for it.

Saikou · #12 (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acacia86

I do not particulary agree with it.............they haven't had time to mature. However, thats just my opinion.

I agree with you. I stewarded for a senior judge and there was a very small for his age kitten in a class that had already been neutered and she remarked what a shame it was as he would never reach his full potential.

All breeds and individuals within that breed develop at different rates, and some aren't even ready at 6 mths let alone 12-14 weeks old. I have read all the pros and cons for early neutering and although I appreciate there appears to be no quantifiable long term affects, like all these sorts of things - how much study was actually done and for how long? Really unless you have a genetically identical twin to that kitten that wasn't neutered young no one can say definitively that it didn't have a detrimental affect on that kittens growth and development.

I understand breeders reasons for early neutering in attempting to protect their kittens, but any sale of a kitten comes down to trust. It does take longer and more effort to find those perfect homes with people you trust completely and it takes time to build up a relationship with those people and not so easy to have them all booked by the age of x weeks. BYBs looking for a kitten are looking for an easy sale, they are not interested in waiting for a particular pedigree, type or colour just an easy sale, the harder you make that process then the less likely they will be to proceed surely. That may well be a naive view and I am sure everyone has a horror sale story they can repeat but in the scale of things, what percentage of overall sales do those cases represent.

Any young animal/human will recover quicker from ops/injury etc but I would question whether its worth the risk when its not necessary to stress their immune systems even more when they are already being pumped with vaccine, moving to a new home to add a GA and op into that mix. Most may well come out the otherside seemingly unscathed, but there will also be those that don't do so well. Is that percentage of that risk comparable to the percentage risk of those kittens being abused by a BYB ?

At the end of the day surely if a breeder does not trust an individual not to breed unscrupulously from a kitten, then that is not the right home for that kitten - period!!! Just my take on things.

kozykatz · #13 (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 10:11 PM

My vet has neutered my kittens at 13-14 weeks or so for the past 6 and a half years. I could not be more pleased at how well it has worked - I must have had around 70 kittens neutered by now and have only had one minor problem ( a girl with a minor post op infection). They recover very quickly, even in comparison with a 6 month old kitten. This year I've also changed my vaccination protocol to 11 and 15 weeks rather than the usually quoted 9 and 12 weeks, and that's worked well too, because the neutering can be done in between the 2 vaccinations. It doesn't bother me at all to keep the kittens longer than the "regulation" 13 weeks - personally I think 13 weeks is too young to let them go anyway.

When I first started the early neutering I increased my kitten price by £50, but since then I've always stated that neutering and chipping are included in the price, and it hasn't increased for around 4 years now. I pay £35 for boys and £45 for girls. Apart from one potential owner telling me it was cruel to neuter kittens, (utter nonsense!) all my owners have been more than happy that they don't have to worry about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clare Ferris

thanks for all the useful advice. I was seriously considering it anyway but was worried re: anaesthetic combinations in such young cats and recovery rates/complications etc but from what I can see there are less complications if done before/around 12 weeks and the best anaesthetic regime would be pre emptive analgesia and Isoflurane as less risks and quick recovery. I have spoke to breeders in America who do it and some rescues are now doing it over here so I am guessing it will eventually become more common.

I would probably get the vaccs done first then go for op at 13 weeks then rehome boys a week later and the girls two weeks later, so it will mean keeping hold of them alittle longer but I am sure owner wont mind if they know the kitten is all sorted before collection. Do breeders who do this find kitten owners appreciate it and do you charge slightly more with the op having been done in advance?

It certainly would give me peace of mind that none of my kitties would go on to be used in some byb program and abused which would be horrendous. Contracts are all well and good but they are very difficult and costly to enforce so atleast anyone trying to decieve me by buying a kitten in the hope of later breeding without my consent will definately not want one of mine if they find out they will be altered before sale.

I have printed of the info and will take it into work with me. One of our vets did spay his little girl early as she had to have surgery anyway and there where no problems so he is happy doing it but just concerned re the difficulty getting drug doses etc right as you have to be very careful so that is something we will need to discuss well in advance.

mollythecollie · #14 (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clare Ferris

Well everyone has there opinions which is appreciated. If they are too small and underweight then I would not do it and I am still wary about the girls being done but there has been alot of success in America with it in rescue. If it helps contol the over population problem then that has to be a good thing, but thats a whole different debate I suppose. For me the reason I want to do it is because I am terrified of a kitten getting into the wrong hands and being bred from indiscriminately. I would always wonder until proof of neutering came back to me, this way If she/he is done before rehoming then I can be 100% sure this will never happen and hopefully put off people with other intentions from getting one of my kittens. Anyone can put on an act and imply they want the kitten to be a loving indoor pet and then go against this later on and even with a contract in place there is not much you can do about it.

An example would be of something I read on a chinchilla breeders website re byb's. She sold a very small girl with a heart problem that she explained to the new owner, at a greatly reduced rate because they only wanted a loving pet and not to breed. She then found out that this poor little girl was running free in this womans home with an entire silver persian who was mating freely with all the cats including her. She is tiny and chinnys being finer boned than persians means there is potential there for huge kittens from a very small girl who could possibly have difficulties and end up needing a caesarian or worse dying from giving birth especially with the heart problem aswell. When she contacted this person She was told to basically get lost and it was none of her business what she did with the cat as it was now hers and there is nothing she could do about it. This person now practices neutering before re homing and never has to worry about her little babies being abused, she could not believe how she was decieved by this person as she seemed so genuine so it can happen to anyone of us breeders. If I can stop this happening with little risk to my babies then im all for it.

Would you never sell to someone who wanted to breed?

Clare Ferris · #15 (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

I agree with you. I stewarded for a senior judge and there was a very small for his age kitten in a class that had already been neutered and she remarked what a shame it was as he would never reach his full potential.

All breeds and individuals within that breed develop at different rates, and some aren't even ready at 6 mths let alone 12-14 weeks old. I have read all the pros and cons for early neutering and although I appreciate there appears to be no quantifiable long term affects, like all these sorts of things - how much study was actually done and for how long? Really unless you have a genetically identical twin to that kitten that wasn't neutered young no one can say definitively that it didn't have a detrimental affect on that kittens growth and development.

I understand breeders reasons for early neutering in attempting to protect their kittens, but any sale of a kitten comes down to trust. It does take longer and more effort to find those perfect homes with people you trust completely and it takes time to build up a relationship with those people and not so easy to have them all booked by the age of x weeks. BYBs looking for a kitten are looking for an easy sale, they are not interested in waiting for a particular pedigree, type or colour just an easy sale, the harder you make that process then the less likely they will be to proceed surely. That may well be a naive view and I am sure everyone has a horror sale story they can repeat but in the scale of things, what percentage of overall sales do those cases represent.

Any young animal/human will recover quicker from ops/injury etc but I would question whether its worth the risk when its not necessary to stress their immune systems even more when they are already being pumped with vaccine, moving to a new home to add a GA and op into that mix. Most may well come out the otherside seemingly unscathed, but there will also be those that don't do so well. Is that percentage of that risk comparable to the percentage risk of those kittens being abused by a BYB ?

At the end of the day surely if a breeder does not trust an individual not to breed unscrupulously from a kitten, then that is not the right home for that kitten - period!!! Just my take on things.

you have made fair points and yes I suppose they all develop differently. My first sibby who was purchased as a pet and occassional show cat. He was done before hand and he has gone on to develop wonderfully and he is definately not small at nearly 6kg. I have not seen any evidence to suggest that sexual hormones not being present stunt growth. You wont get the big jowls with a neuter than entires get but even if done at 6 months you dont get that either. I have seen older boys one plus who are like this but who wants to keep a boy to that age as a pet?

It is always my intention to vet new owners properly and I agree people wanting an easy sale wont wait hence why I have not sold to people who just phone me up ask have I got kittens and then go elswhere when I say no. They dont want to go on a waitlist so they dont get a kitten. But people can be very clever in deceiving others and someone can come across as really nice but unless you can read minds or see into the future I would always still wonder. Obviously I will have to be 100% happy to sell a kitten but it still has no guarantees. As I think you said earleir the price of siberians may also attract alot of byb's wanting to make money so I have that added pressure also to deal with.

If they are being fed a good diet and cared for they will develop well eventually I have an entire girl who is not big. I am willing to give it a go and see how it works out. There have been alot of good things said about early neutering and how they heal quicker than even a 6 month old. A nurse I work with had her foster kitten operated on at about 8 weeks because he swallowed a teat from the bottle ... he was a very vigorous feeder and she could not believe how quick he was awake and running round completely after it.

Obviously not for everyone I suppose but I do believe it wont cause major harm otherwise I would not do it just for my piece of mind.

Saikou · #16 (**permalink**) 08-01-2010, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clare Ferris

As I think you said earleir the price of siberians may also attract alot of byb's wanting to make money so I have that added pressure also to deal with

Surely thats a reason to resolve that issue price wise rather than put a kitten at risk from a GA to resolve it, and as I am sure you are aware all GAs carry a risk no matter how small, at a time when a lot of other stress factors are being thrown at a kitten

Clare Ferris · #17 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mollythecollie

Would you never sell to someone who wanted to breed?

Yes I probably would but not yet. I am new to breeding and I need to develop my own lines and see which cats produce the best kittens. I would only really want to sell good girls for breeding with a contract in place. I would however only sell to another registered breeder who I had met through showing or had referred to me from someone I knew well who also could recommend the person as being ethical. Or someone who contacted me that maybe I did not know but got to know over a long period who could prove to me that they were registered and had the necessary basic knowledge and ethics as me. So a serious breeder wanting my lines who would be willing to wait and do everything properly, not someone wanting a girl now from just anyone.
So basically I would not sell to someone who phoned or emailed me saying have you got any girls for breeding which has happened alot already. I even had a breeder ask me to sell him a stud boy. Now this would almost certainly be a no. Not without knowing the person very well and having restrictions on the boy they buy. But to be honest when you are paying a few thousand to import a boy as I am going to be doing who is from a new line not currently in this country it would be very silly to then go and sell someone a boy for stud so it would also be done to protect my lines.

I am all for helping new breeders get started once I have more experience behind me but they must also be in it for the right reasons and not as a way of making money at the cats expense.

Clare Ferris · #18 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

Surely thats a reason to resolve that issue price wise rather than put a kitten at risk from a GA to resolve it, and as I am sure you are aware all GAs carry a risk no matter how small, at a time when a lot of other stress factors are being thrown at a kitten

The price issue I dont think I can control alone. My prices are based on what others charge so I dont charge high prices. When the overall price comes down which I am sure it will eventually when they become more popular, then that may help. But I think if I lower my price alot then I may get more byb's approaching me as they would think they can get a registered sibby for half the price everyone else charges. I suppose also other breeders/pet owners may look at my price and think well she is very cheap what's wrong with her kittens, they must not be pure bred. Its a difficult one which I cant contol alone. I am sure if you charged half the normal price for yours or any other breeder for that matter you would get similar responses.
I am well aware of the GA risk also regardless of the age but there are things that can be done to reduce these risks before and during surgery. I would do vaccines and then a week or so later the op. I would then probably rehome the boys a week later the girls two weeks later once the stitches are out. I have heard arguments that the stress levels are greatly reduced as the kittens are going back to a familiar environment with mum and litter mates were they feel secure to recover fully so that could go in their favour. It means rehoming alittle later but I dont mind this.

Acacia86 · #19 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 12:34 AM

You say about lowering your 'prices' will encourage more BYB's...........your right.

BUT, is it not your reponsibilty to vet the potential owners? You should only home your kittens to people whom you trust, and you put your trust in to ahere to your contact?

This is where keeping in contact with the new owners come in..........

Never mind taking bits out of babies at such a young age to make sure they don't breed, but how about trusting your instincts about potential new owners? And vetting to such a position that BYB's and irresponsible owners would not bother with?

Saikou · #20 (**permalink**) 09-01-2010, 01:03 AM

You have complete control over what you charge. Sensible pricing has to start somewhere. Bengals are a prime example, I am sure that all started with well they charge that so I will etc. They are currently really suffering from that early must have designer label being sold for a premium. Surely its better to resolve that issue whilst the breed is in its infancy than wait until it gets so out of hand no one has contol over it.

Decent pet owners are also just as likely to be attracted to sensibly priced kittens. As I said BYBs are not interested in jumping through hoops no matter how much you charge.

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