A question for Siamese breeders

lymorelynn · #1 (**permalink**) 13-01-2009, 03:05 PM

When I'm looking for a stud to mate with Mai Tai later in the year (fingers crossed etc!!!) would it be best to go with one with oriental in the pedigree or just siamese? She has oriental in hers, one of which, on her dam's side, was silver meaning I can't show her or any kittens from her for several generations.
Her breeder said to go for the oriental lines as they are stronger and Mai Tai's mum lost her first litter of kittens when mated with a pure Siamese. Is this all just personal preference?

)
Thanks for any assistance.

Saikou · #2 (**permalink**) 13-01-2009, 04:25 PM

You will probably get a myriad of answers to that question. Siamese purests would hold their hands up in horror at a siamese pedigree tainted with a nasty oriental (basically one step up from a moggie in their eyes

). However, I have to say I agree with Mai Tai's breeder on this one. Orientals in a line do add a little bit of hybrid vigour. Sadly a lot of the siamese lines are greatly weakened by a number of recessive nasties that get passed on unchecked from generation to generation.

As the 'siamese' gene is recessive, any siamese can not carry the dominant 'oriental' gene so if you wanted to breed soley siamese from your kitten and you took her to siamese studs, even if she had an oriental parent or two, you would neve have an oriental pop up in a litter.

Under the GCCF siamese with one or more oriental parents are considered pedigree siamese and can be shown. The only difference is that they have a cssr supplementary registration number rather than a cs registration number, but there are no restrictions.

Just check that if there are oris in the pedigree that there are no foreign whites behind the siamese lines in there.

may · #3 (**permalink**) 13-01-2009, 04:57 PM

I agree 100% with Saikou

bluechip · #4 (**permalink**) 13-01-2009, 08:49 PM

i agree with the above 100%
i breed siamese and when i was looking around for my own stud i decided to go with a blue boy, it is pref on the breeder side you really need to go with what you feel you want to do. just make sure the stud you do use ask lots of questions this is your queen and you want the best for her.
years ago i had a seal point and sent her to stud with a choc boy when it came to having the kittens they all died but not long after the stud died suddenly so do be careful is all that i am saying.

lymorelynn · #5 (**permalink**) 13-01-2009, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saikou

You will probably get a myriad of answers to that question. Siamese purests would hold their hands up in horror at a siamese pedigree tainted with a nasty oriental (basically one step up from a moggie in their eyes

). However, I have to say I agree with Mai Tai's breeder on this one. Orientals in a line do add a little bit of hybrid vigour. Sadly a lot of the siamese lines are greatly weakened by a number of recessive nasties that get passed on unchecked from generation to generation.

As the 'siamese' gene is recessive, any siamese can not carry the dominant 'oriental' gene so if you wanted to breed soley siamese from your kitten and you took her to siamese studs, even if she had an oriental parent or two, you would neve have an oriental pop up in a litter.

Under the GCCF siamese with one or more oriental parents are considered pedigree siamese and can be shown. The only difference is that they have a cssr supplementary registration number rather than a cs registration number, but there are no restrictions.

Just check that if there are oris in the pedigree that there are no foreign whites behind the siamese lines in there.

Thanks Saikou that has made it clearer on the genetics for me. If I look for a Siamese stud with oriental genes I should be ok?
However my pink slip from GCCF clearly says 'cannot be shown, silver in pedigree' though Mai Tai is registered as a blue point she doesn't have a breed number. I have read GCCF regulations regarding cssr and it does that the silver is an exception.

why is that if the oriental gene cannot be passed on?

Saikou · #6 (**permalink**) 14-01-2009, 12:36 PM

The silver is a colour inhibitor a separate gene to coat 'pattern' (maybe pattern's not the right word as its nothing to do with tabby). Silver is not a 'colour' recognised in siamese hence the registration. I would imagine it would be near impossible to tell a siamese with silver as there is so little colour to look at, therefore to ensure no silver siamese sneak into the main gene pool, they blanket say any siamese with silver in their pedigree within 5 generations (I think its 5 will have to check) has the potential to be a silver siamese, even though the silver is dominant. Even an oriental with silver in the pedigree is overstamped for such even if they are clearly not silver and as a gene it is dominant and can not be secretly carried.

The oriental coat pattern ie a self solid colour all over, colour not restricted to points only (C) is dominant, therefore if the cat has one of those genes that gene is expressed. The gene (cs) that restricts the colour to the points as for siamese is recessive and can be carried. For that gene to be expressed it needs a complete pair, one cs gene inherited from each parent. So for coat pattern and oriental not carrying siamese would have two C genes - CC
An oriental carrying siamese has one dominant C gene and one recessive cs gene - C cs
A siamese has two recessive cs genes - cs cs.

How far back is Mai Tai's silver ?

lymorelynn · #7 (**permalink**) 14-01-2009, 03:38 PM

Thank you for the genetics lesson - much appreciated! I know about dominant and recessive genes but how they work in Siamese and orientals is very interesting and the information very useful. mai Tai's breeder did say that it was 5 generations before any kittens could be shown.
Mai Tai's grand-sire on her dam's side (is that how to say it for a cat?) was a chocolate silver and his sire was a red silver. There was also a chocolate silver in her great great grandparents. The prefix is Besuqueo - do you know of them at all?

Saikou · #8 (**permalink**) 14-01-2009, 03:50 PM

I have heard of Besuqueo, I've never seen one in the flesh, but the prefix is behind some nice cats on the show bench.

Grandsire and dam are the right terms yes

I would take Mai Tai to an ori stud. At least then if you get any nice ori offspring you can have fun show them.

lymorelynn · #9 (**permalink**) 14-01-2009, 03:56 PM

Hadn't thought of that! Good idea - thank you.

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