Hi all,
I have just mated my chinchilla persian for the first time and I've read that sometimes new mothers have difficulty giving birth to kittens due to the shape of the heads of persian kittens in comparsion to other breeds.

Have any Persian breeders found this to be the case and if so would you have any advice on what I could do or what I should look out for.

Many thanks for any asistance.

Do you have a mentor? You really could do with one if this is your first litter. Also, are you a member of Novice Breeder Advice? It's a Yahoo group which is excellent. I breed Persians as well, and although my girl had a C section, I did a lot of reading on what to look out for.

You need to keep a close eye on her a few days before she's due. I took my girl's temp morning and night so I knew when she was going into active labour. Unfortunately, my girl didn't get past stage 1, but when active contractions start, the queen shouldn't be allowed to push constantly for more then about 30-40 minutes without production of a kitten. I had homeopathic remedies such as Caulophyllu on hand to help if needed, so it would be worth looking into this as well. Does your girl have a large or small pelvis? What size is her head and what about the boy's? This can often give an indication of how difficult/easy the birth will be, but it's an indication only. Surprises can and do happen!

There is always the chance of a section being required with any breed, not only persians.

Make sure you ask your vet how much it would cost for a section (both normal hours and out of hours) and have that money aside.

I didn't have a mentor when i started but i did read as much as possible, and you've made a great decision joining this forum!

I have a persian and am friends with the lady who bred my persian and as far as i'm aware she hasn't had to have many sections, she no longer breeds persians.

Know what to look for and don't wait if you can see or feel something isn't right! Always better safe than sorry if you're not sure.

How old is your girl, any pics?

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I have only ever bred one litter of persians and both parents were open type (the boy very open type indeed like something out of the 1930s) so that may not be a very good indication, I did find the mother cried out during the birth - that also happened with the Burmilla litters she had which would have had much narrower heads.

I call the vet if the girl has been actively straining for 2 hours. Some people here say that is too long but the vet giving the kittening lecture at the Supreme show said three hours. Obviously if it looks really difficult eg. mother constantly getting into the litter tray and out again, very restless and crying out then you do not wait two hours.

Liz

Lizz, I was told not to wait the full 2 hours with a Persian if they're straining hard. They tire easily due to the increased effort to pass the large heads, and the longer you wait, the harder it will be for her to finish birthing given this extra effort.

I helped the vets I worked at years ago do 2 caesars on persians, both had been left too long and the kittens were dead, luckily they saved the mothers and spayed them at the same time, so speed is of the essence to know when it is going pear shaped - definitely speak to an experienced breeder. They do seem to have alot of problems because they are so badly deformed it makes their skulls much wider and harder for the mothers to deliver, so good advice to set aside enough money for a spay as you will most likely need it.

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Fair enough.

Liz

Is this a case of breeding for type going too far? A bit like slopey backed GSDs and bulldogs? Should we not try to breed back to a better and more natural head type? Just a questions guys.

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Alison, deformed is a bit of a strong word, isn't it?

Spid, I think some of the breeding that's going on these days is too extreme. The poor cats end up with more nose leather than nose, and some of the extremes aren't even bred carefully enough to ensure that they have large nostrils to keep breathing as easy as possible. Some of us are trying to breed more towards the old fashioned, open type, but unfortunately they don't do so well on the show bench, so there isn't as much demand for them which means they're bred less. Nevertheless, the heads are still big on them.

In general, I think it's a bit unfair for folks to imply that a C section is highly likely. I was unfortunate, but then look at breeds like Bengals who have frequent C sections without having massive heads. The fact is that some cats birth easily and others don't. Persians are slightly more prone to C sections, but only slightly. Remember that they are chocolate box cats. Most well bred ones have a pelvis equally as large as the head so that they can accommodate that very thing; kittens with large heads.

Ah, okay - I wish the more traditional type would do well on the bench then to help the breed become healthier.

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