that was abit nasty......

Why is it nasty?

No responsible cat owner, let alone breeder, would allow unneutered adult females free access to the outdoors.

This is not a dig at you mummyof2, you were misled by a shelter to believe your female was neutered.

Liz is perfectly aware the queens she lets roam free are unneutered.

To say this is unusual in the breeding world is putting it mildy. I have never even heard of breeders doing this.

It wasn't quite like that. I had a half-grown boy in the house at the time. I thought I made that clear in the first post. These things do happen you know and the only way to totally remove the possibility is to pen any boy you want to keep from the time he is about four months old, or pen the girls.

Liz

Only if they are allowed outside when they are actually calling, and they are not. Katie was in the house and mated with Basil who was also living in the house at the time. Basil was supposed to be mating with Fiona but didn't do the job. Danny, being only 7 months old at the time the kittens were conceived and having shown no interest in girls, was still living in the house. That's all. I don't pen my boys at seven months unless it is absolutely unavoidable.

When Fiona's kittens emerged it was immediately obvious that they were not Basil's. Katie's could have been Basil's and that is what I hope the DNA test result is about to tell me.

Liz

Aurelia, when I have reached your vast level of experience I shall no doubt do things differently.

Liz

Half grown? He was 8 months old, as someone who breeds cats, surely you were aware he was more than likely to be fertile by that age In fact you must know that going on what you have written above ...

I would have thought any responsible and serious cat breeder would go to any length not to take necessary precautions, to prevent accidental breeding. Not have such a gung ho approach. Seriously, I would not like to buy a cat from someone like you, if queens and toms are allowed to run freely together, how can you guarantee the pedigree of any of your cats

Being fertile is not the same thing as being interested, if the male won't do the job, or can't work out how to do it, it doesn't help that he is fertile! I don't think I've ever had a boy who has functioned until he's been at least a year old. I rather envy these people who have boys trying it on at five months, a boy like that would be esepcially useful if you need to move on through the generations quickly.

As for guaranteeing the pedigree, in this case obviously I couldn't, which is why I have spent a horrible amount of money on DNA testing.

Liz

Liz read the bolded bit to yourself. Then maybe you will see how utterly ridiculous your argument is for being so ... so ...ugh!

Amethyst ~ I don't think she can guarentee the pedigrees are correct. I certainly wouldn't trust them anyway.

Liz how many cross breed litters have you had? This alone is just pure irresponsible, period! You KNOW females don't always call in the presence of a male.

Also how the heck did you miss the young one mating your queen/s, they are in your house right?

As for your comment about my vast experience? I know one thing Liz I will never ever become a breeder like you.

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So Lizward, it’s outside the realms of possibility that a unneutered female cat could go outdoors at 9am, come back at 6pm, and go into heat in that period of time? Would it be outside the realms of possibility that you could miss a female calling? Is it outside the realms of possibility that a young (unneutered) male in the home could sexually mature and mate with an unneutered female without you noticing it? Scrap that last one, I think we know the answer to that one.

According to all the literature I have ever read, none of these things are unusual, let alone “outside the realms of possibility”.

I know many breeders don’t put young males out in the stud accommodation before they are fully matured sexually and ready to get down to work. But I thought that was why responsible breeders did some form of separation, like when the males get around to 5 months old or so (depending on the breed and the age they generally become sexually active) they put the male upstairs and leave the girls downstairs, or like my friend will do pretty soon with her new male… he’ll get the kitchen, dining room and downstairs hall, and the girls will get their usual run of the house. The few neuters they have will keep the young boy company, and her and her hubbys laptops will move from the living room to the dining room. I doubt she will put the boy into the stud accommodation before he’s around a year old unless he starts to spray or becomes over amorous. This strikes me as what a breeder should do… take responsible precautionary measures. Not just leave it down to something that amounts to little more than pot-luck (a la, "never had a male who functioned before he was a year old”).

I am still astounded and shocked you are so (apparently) laid back with all this. Frankly, you’re playing with fire.

I thought separation of potentially “viable” cats was the first rule of cat breeding. Well, it probably is… but just with breeders a lot less carelessly lackadaisical than you are!

I think you will find many cat breeders are not as cut and dried in their practices as "good practice" dictates.

The only way to have complete control is to house all cats in their own pen in a professional cattery set up.
Infection is minimised and the chances of escape slim and the chances of mismating zero. However many think it cruel to the cats and do not want "outdoor raised" kittens.
Many people do not like to see cats in solitary confinement with little human/other cat contact, so want their kittens "home reared" and the cats able to interact with others and the kittens raised indoors. In this situation, infection can be a problem, escape out the front door a possibility and the chances of mismating can be high.

It seems that people want their cake and eat it, they want "home raised" animals, but don't want the downsides that breeding any animal purely in a home brings.

Many breeders juggle home and outside pens and that can work very well. However young animals kept for a program can pose difficulties, too young for total pen life or solitary confinement in their own room, as they are still technically kittens, and too old to not be at risk of pregnancy or getting others pregnant.

Mismating is not what any breeder would want but with DNA testing it is possible now to remedy the situation.
Liz has done the DNA which is more than some breeders would do in her situation, some would have just kept schtum.
I have heard of similar tales of studs/young males running about with young females/queens and the sires "assumed".
Hence the unreliable pedigrees that some find that they must have, when kittens that are genetically "impossible" are born.

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Lauren

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