I cannot gte onto Youtube at the moment, as my computer won't download the latest Flash Player, so I can't use the links.

One of my girls is a working gundog. The amount I have seen these collars abusively used ont he field, when owners have simply not bothered to train their dogs properly absolutely appalls me.

Regardless of the level of discomfort/pain they apply, they are still applying discomfort/pain, or they wouldn't work. I personally never want my dog to do something for me because the alternative is that I will inflict discomfort or pain upon them.

My gun trained girl will come instantly when called, regardless of the distraction, whether that be chasing a rabbit or deer, or attempting to say hello to another dog or person. It hasn't happened by accident, and as she has never been especially toy/food motivated it took rather more effort than it otherwise would.

She doesn't only come to me for a treat, but I couldn't give two hoots if she did. She'd still be returning because she wanted to, not because she was trying to avoid whatever happened if she didn't. I know which I prefer.

As for Cesar Milan, I'd be interested to read the thread, if someone can please link it, but I'd probably be best not to go there......